I thought that Sifo-Dyas was supposed to have died _before_ the clone army was ordered? Wasn't that what Obi-Wan said in the holo-message? I have some problems with Sifo-Dyas and Palpatine being one and the same, since one was a known Jedi Master, and the other presumably had been a Naboo diplomatic and political functionary for decades. Certainly, Palpatine seems to have a fairly good standing in the Senate even in TPM.

I suppose it might depend on how long he had been planning this whole thing, but my impression was that Palpatine/Sidious just used Sifo-Dyas' name to make the deal look respectable. Of course, the nearness of the names does start to look like more than coincidence. Maybe Palpatine chose his Sith name from the first Jedi he killed?

(Edited by The Prophet 01/06/2002 13:01)

As I understood it, Obi-Wan thought that Sifo-Dyas had died before the order for the clone army was made, but wasn't sure. And when he asked Yoda and Windu if this was right, he got no reply. In fact I'm sure that there was a strange and worried look on Yoda's face when Obi-Wan asked the question. Well, more than usual, at least.

Seems to me that Palpatine could well have been Sifo-Dyas. I only wish I'd thought of it myself...

It also seemed clear to me that Dooku did know all about the clone army, and as others have said the whole Separatist movement, and the conspiracy with the Trade Federation and the rest was to justify the clone army and Palpatine becoming an elected dictator.

Further, I am convinced that Jango was told to use a Kamino Kyberdart specifically to lead the Jedis to the clones, as the Jedis would have to introduce them for the republic to accept them.

Although why the republic didn't have a standing army in the first place I'll never understand.

Oh, and while Dooku had hired Jango to oversee the murder of Padme, there was never any intention of doing so, as Padme is essential in PalpatineÂ’s plans to take Anakin over to the dark side. The threat of murder kept the Trade Federation happy (although their desire for her death may have been implanted by Dooku so they could be blamed for the attacks), it forced the Padme to leave the Senate (with a more malleable Jar-Jar as deputy) and forced Anakin and Padme into close quarters.

But then it wouldnÂ’t surprise me if Palpatine had a hand in AnakinÂ’s mumÂ’s kidnap and murder.

Astounding, Holmes!

---

by Jayjay
Oh, and while Dooku had hired Jango to oversee the murder of Padme, there was never any intention of doing so, as Padme is essential in PalpatineÂ’s plans to take Anakin over to the dark side. The threat of murder kept the Trade Federation happy (although their desire for her death may have been implanted by Dooku so they could be blamed for the attacks), it forced the Padme to leave the Senate (with a more malleable Jar-Jar as deputy) and forced Anakin and Padme into close quarters.

---

Nope I don't agree with this. If the attempts to kill Padme were meant to fail then the bounty hunter that jango hired, Zeen(?), was doing a bad job of attempting to fail. The explosion at the start killed Padme(well her double anyway) which would have been a success if Padme had not been flying the starfighter. Remember that Palpatine is not looking for Anakin to be his apprentice at the moment. As Yoda said in Episode 1.."Always 2 mebers of the Sith there are..a master and the apprentice". Then it was Palpatine & Maul, now Palpatine & Dooku so to say that the actions that Palpatine was taking were to lure Anakin to the dark side is probably false. The Trade federation didn't like Padme after their defeat at Naboo during TPM.

Anyway enough from me just now.

Palpatine could not have been Sifo-Dyas...

Sifo-Dyas was obviously a relatively well-known Jedi, because Obi-Wan knew of him, but had never met him and his death. Palpatine is from Naboo and was the Senator for Naboo, so how in the galaxy could he also be a high ranking Jedi? To become a high ranking Jedi he would have had to have been trained and raised at the Jedi Temple, so he could not have become a Naboo senator...

What is suggested is that Palpatine/Dooku was responsible for Sifo-Dyas' death.

It was Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus who actually went to the Kimonoans and ordered the creation of the Clone Army, posing as Sifo-Dyas. This is evidenced by a) the fact that Palpatine is a very important statesman, so he wouldn't have been able to leave Coruscant and b) Fett was hired by Darth Tyranus, which is Dooku.

Milky, just because the attempts came close doesn't mean that Palpatine actually wanted her dead. Surely if the attempts were to succeed they would have had Jango do the deed himself, not sub-contract out? And Palpatine, being close to Padme, would have known she always uses a double, as well as knowing all her security arrangements, getting her killed should have been a piece of urine. Yet these details weren't passed on to the bounty hunter (I forget her name).

As for the recruitment of Anakin I really must disagree. Palpatine must be aware of Anakin's potential, and see he would be better as a future apprentice, than a future enemy. He has clearly gone out of his way, between TPM and AotC, to woo Anakin and to corrupt his training. He clearly manipulates the situation so that Obi-Wan and Anakin are assigned to be bodyguards to Padme, and that Anakin is then assigned alone to her when she is sent back to Naboo. These things didn't happen by accident.

Further, don't think there is any loyalty between Sith Lord and apprentice. In RotJ Palpatine offers Luke the opportunity to kill Vader and replace him as his apprentice. All a Sith Lord cares about is themselves. If Anakin would be more use than Dooku, then goodbye Dooku.

As for Palpatine - Sifo Dyas, Maff, is it not possible for Palpatine to have used the force to manipulate perceptions? Either to have replaced an original Palpatine on Naboo with himself, thus assuming his name before faking his death as Sifo Dyas? Or even to have infiltrated the Jedi order at a later age?

However I do agree that Dooku will have handled all the dealings with the Kimonoans, as well as Fett, as Palpatine would never have got his fingers THAT dirty...

Bounty hunter's name = Zam Wessell

And at the end of the film Dooku says to Palpatine something along the lines of "The boy has begun his turn"...obviously this *is* Palpatine's plan. Although why Dooku would go along with it if he were to be replaced, who knows?

Not to get in the line of fire, but I agree with JayJay, that Palpatine at least is considering the apprentiship of Anakin. Remember at the end of Episode I, Palpatine says "I'll be keeping a close eye on you, young Skywalker" and he is clearly a tutor to Anakin in Episode II, by the comments between them, how Anakin mentions his frustration about Obi-One, which he would never do to some stranger.

Besides, who cares, all that matters is Yoda's battle, it was SSSOOOOOOOOO GGGGGGGGOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDD!!!!

As for why Dooku would be party to Anakin's recruitment, let's not forget that he in turn makes the same mistake as Darth Vader, in the recruitment of Luke. Just because the Jedi's realise there can only be two Sith at any given time, it is quite possible that the apprentices think this is Jedi propaganda. Falling to the dark side doesn't seem to do much for survival skills...

And yes, Yoda's fight scene does rock. In fact, as I haven't gone on record as saying this yet, the whole film rocks. A huge improvement on TPM. The only really annoying parts (with one exception) are remainders from TPM - Jar Jar, The Trade Federation and Watto. But they're kept to a minimum. The only other issue I have is that Padme knows where Anakin and Obi are when she is rescued, despite not having seen the result of the chase. Either she has a previously unnoticed gift for using the force to track the movements of her loved ones or it was bad writing. Time will tell...

Oooh, and thanks for the info, Spikeo.

Oh yes, Palpatine is definitely grooming Anakin to be his apprentice, and he has been ever since the end of The Phantom Menace, when he says (not an exact quote) "I shall watch your career with great interest," or something like that.

And from their discussion in Palpatine's office, it is clear that Palpatine is the main factor in Anakin's arrogance. He openly encourages Anakin's view that he will be all powerful, fueling his discontent with Obi-Wan.

It's a sure bet that Palpatine knows that Anakin is the Chosen One...

---

by Jayjay
As for why Dooku would be party to Anakin's recruitment, let's not forget that he in turn makes the same mistake as Darth Vader, in the recruitment of Luke. Just because the Jedi's realise there can only be two Sith at any given time, it is quite possible that the apprentices think this is Jedi propaganda. Falling to the dark side doesn't seem to do much for survival skills...

---

Either that, or, like Vader, Tyranous hopes to subvert Anakin, become his master, and supplant Sidious; or that when Anakin becomes the apprentice, he will be free to take an apprentice of his own and thus spread the influence of the Sith.

Moreover, I'm still not convinced that Tyranous is Sidious' apprentice. Frankly, he's Christopher Lee, and I don't buy him as the stooge. He calls Sidious his master, but Sidious calls him Lord Tyranous instead of My hope - although not my expectation - is that III will make it clearer that Tyranous is another Sith Lord, subservient to Sidious, but not his apprentice.

On another topic, I remain unconvinced that Yoda would not only fail to notice that Palpatine is chock-full of Dark Side-y goodness, but that he is a former Jedi Master, whom Yoda must have known.

My current theory (theory 47) is that Palpatine took a name so similar to Syfo-Dyas' because Syfo-Dyas was his teacher. But, he was a padawan that the Council didn't know about, because Syfo-Dyas wanted to hide what the Council would inevitably discover - that Palpatine was his son, what he is not supposed to have.

When Palpatine discovered the Dark Side, he hid it from Daddy and used his abilities to climb the ladder of Naboo diplomacy. Eventually, when he was poised to become Grand Chancellor, he removed the liability of his father in the only way a true villain could: He killed him, revealing at last the power he had learned for himself. Then, he used his knowledge of Syfo-Dyas' connection to the force, and their genetic similarity, to fake his identity and order the clone army.

Like it Prophet. I like that theory a lot.

The downside, unfortunately, is that when I like theories they inevitably turn out to be wide of the mark. Sorry.

I remember reading some info about the expanded universe where it details some history of the Sith...there used to be a lot, far more than 2...but because of the nature of the dark side they would nearly always self-destruct and turn on each other, hence the reason it was decided to limit themselves to only 2.

So it's not entirely impossible that there could be a plan for there to be 3 Sith, even if it is unlikely.

---

by Spikeo
I remember reading some info about the expanded universe where it details some history of the Sith...there used to be a lot, far more than 2...but because of the nature of the dark side they would nearly always self-destruct and turn on each other, hence the reason it was decided to limit themselves to only 2.

So it's not entirely impossible that there could be a plan for there to be 3 Sith, even if it is unlikely.

---

When Yoda says "Always two there are." I always figured he meant that the Sith operate in a strict master and apprentice arrangement, much like the Jedi master/padawan relationship. While certainly, the Sith would be unlikely to trust each other much, I don't particularly hold with the 'only two in the tens of thousands of inhabited star systems in the galaxy' approach.

I can see that a master wouldn't want two apprentices, since they might be able to gang up on him even if neither were stronger than him. Nor would he want his apprentice learning from someone else. But I don't believe there are only two in all the galaxy as a strict matter of protocol. Just for starters, even if that were the rule, the Sith are evil; they break rules.

I mean, 'it was decided'? Who decided? The last master and apprentice?

Darth Custard: Okay, Darth Roobarb. I figure we shouldn't have more than two Sith, so I sure won't be looking for another apprentice. <Sotto voce> Or if I find one, I guess you'll have to go. <Cackles evilly>.

Darth Roobarb: As you say, Master Custard. I will certainly not be looking to take an apprentice then. <Sotto voce> And stay your apprentice forever? Yeah right. I'm getting me an apprentice and putting you in the ground old man. <Laughs maniacally.

I don't see it; do you?

Of course, Lucas not a man known for painstakingly thinking his premises through. Pre-pubescent elected monarchs anyone?

Now that would be a funny plot

{Warning turns into a rant about the woes of CG - FM}

Ok so it took me forever, but me and kitty watched it tonight, and we were well impressed! I had some misgivings at the start of the film, mainly about the CG which didn't always blend well with the actors and just looked cheap frankly. Its something i've noticed more and more in modern films, that while CG is progressing, it is also becoming more pervasive, and more obvious. It should be improving, but from what I can see its getting worse! I supsect Spiderman will be similar.

There are a few probs with CG today as I see it:

[/BEGIN RANT]

Many directors (or whoever makes these decisions) are thrilled with the idea that using CG, they can realise vast numbers of characters. Unfortunately while some clever algorithms are often used in the movement of these characters, they still come off looking unnatural, and i'd suggest require a lot more study of natural crowds before they get anywhere close to looking realistic.

Showing off the FX - CG is a means to an end, not the end itself - films like A.I. do a fairly good job of the effects being _part_ of the film, not sticking out of it.

Blending - its just not possible yet to blend CGI with natural film and have it look natural.

Movement - probably the worst bugbear in CG would be the naturalness of movement (of both 'natural' and 'man-made' cg rendered objects, and often it seems, perspective is off.

[RANT ENDS/]

Apart from that, I thought the film was fantastic, it more than made up for its problems. The characters were pretty good, Natalie having 'Gone a bit Leia'

Regardless of my earlier rant about CG, I think Yoda is done superbly, you can definately see that a lot of effort has been put into that character, and his expressions are superb and natural looking. I thought the Yoda fight sequence was excellent after being initally suspicious after hearing a few people describe it as 'cheesy'.

Yes the pace was fast, but not dizzying. The love story lacked the genuineness of that between Leia and Han (and in a way Luke), but was very important in giving the film the atmosphere and spirit of the originals. The film would definately be lacking a dimension without it.

The scenery, while largely CG is wondrous, and the odd real location that was chosen, stunning. One of my favourite aspects overall about Star Wars that makes it unlike any other sci-fi I have scene, is Scale - architecture in Star Wars is always on VAST scale, and as a reprieve from the CG, the Royal Palace in Caserta, Italy made a welcome return, as somewhere whey they dont have to pretend things are on a vast scale..they really are!!

I also love the blend of Technology & Traditionalism - the Star Wars universe is one where technology has not diluted and sanatised culture as it has in the real world.

All in all its got that great balance of love, hope, friendship, honour, wisdom, and good 'ol Good Vs Evil that makes the films such classics.

I mentioned how I thought the Yoda CG was very good, turns out they even engineered flaws into his appearence and movement to make him appear more like the old puppet - read the fully story here.

www.ew.com/ew/report/0,6115,261021-1-5~1~0~,00.html

(Edited by Funky Monkey 12/06/2002 16:28)