Well on behalf of my kids who just got back from seeing this and I quote

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Sange's Boys

Wow , cool etc etc we love every min of it

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Well looks like the younger generation are enjoying these films as much as we did all those years ago with the originals

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by Sweet-Sange
Well on behalf of my kids who just got back from seeing this and I quote

(quotes)

Well looks like the younger generation are enjoying these films as much as we did all those years ago with the originals

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You know, Sange, I think you've hit the nail on the head. These films are meant to be enjoyed with the innocence of a child and not deconstruct them as if they are anything more than inoffensive fantasies to begin with. Because I certainly don't remember, when seeing 'A New Hope' aged six, thinking "Boy, is this dialogue corny, the stroyline simplistic and the acting clunky?"

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by Whistler
These films are meant to be enjoyed with the innocence of a child and not deconstruct them as if they are anything more than inoffensive fantasies to begin with

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Wrong!

I'll have you know I'm not innocent, or a non-critical person. I liked the movie, so your wrong

You want lacking innocents, trying watching a Disney movie once in a while. I tell you, there are inuendos and moments no adult couldn't pick-up. Plus, ask Demona to watch an episode of Batman of the Future. She WILL find an inuendo, I garentee.

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by Whistler
(quotes)

I certainly don't remember, when seeing 'A New Hope' aged six, thinking "Boy, is this dialogue corny, the stroyline simplistic and the acting clunky?"

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Yeh, well, after watching Episode 2, I kinda began to question if those 3 films were as great as I remember, so I promised I'd watch them all again with a newer perspective ........which I still haven't had time to to, but I will, soon.

Question for the Star Wars fanatics, (OK Matffrew & Monster)
Who ordered the clone army to be made?
The film made references to a Jedi which Obi-wan said had died 10 years ago.

I'm guessing it was Senator Palpatine, to back-up his new faction, but if that was the case, then why did Dooka not know about them?
And why did Dooka reveal the 'truth' to Obi-Wan? Up until that point, the Jedi had no knowledge of Darth Sideas?

Ock, maybe I need to go away and think about it. It's late, and I'm confused, and going to bed. G'night.

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by CJLQuestion for the Star Wars fanatics, (OK Maffrew & Monster)
Who ordered the clone army to be made?
The film made references to a Jedi which Obi-wan said had died 10 years ago.

I'm guessing it was Senator Palpatine, to back-up his new faction, but if that was the case, then why did Dooku not know about them?
And why did Dooku reveal the 'truth' to Obi-Wan? Up until that point, the Jedi had no knowledge of Darth Sideous?

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Not a fanatic but I think I can stab at these.

The army; I'm not 100% but I think it might've been Dooku himself who ordered them. 10 years ago was when he disappeared from the Jedi order, 10 years ago this Jedi whose name was given was killed...and presumably only a Jedi could have ordered the army (something in the Kaminoan PM's dialogue when he was talking to Obi-Wan made me think that but I can't remember the quote).

AFAIK Sideous was never and has never been a Jedi, so wouldn't have had the necessary access or knowledge. I think

As for why Dooku had no knowledge of them; it's been shown in the past that Sideous uses the dark side to foresee events and mainpulate things so that they come to pass. As far as we know, the clone wars have been planned all along, so he can take command of the Republic. Obviously Dooku *would* know this...but nobody until the end of the film truly knew he was a Sith, and they still do not know who he works for...if he had let on or told anyone that he knew of the clone army it would've been at least a partial giveaway that there was something else going on.

I think the idea is that both Dooku and Palpatine treat their Darth sides (excuse the lame pun ) almost as seperate entities, kind of split personality style. As far as the seperatists knew, Dooku was simply Dooku, former Jedi, and was trying to overthrow the Republic; not Dooku, former Jedi *and* Sith lord working for Palpatine towards a greater end.

In other words he did know but wasn't telling anyone Hope that makes sense

As for telling the truth; as Yoda says at the end of the film (exact quote not guaranteed):

"Lies. Deception. Deceit. These are the ways of the dark side."

It's inconceivable to them that a Sith would actually tell the truth - so when he does, it makes them think the exact opposite is true, and that he's merely trying to create trouble.

But also note he didn't go into great detail - no names, no real evidence to back himself up...it was made to look like a flimsy excuse to try and start trouble in the Republic (by the leader of the seperatists, remember - exactly what he'd want) and that's what they believe it is.

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by Spikeo
(quotes)
But also note he didn't go into great detail - no names, no real evidence to back himself up...it was made to look like a flimsy excuse to try and start trouble in the Republic (by the leader of the seperatists, remember - exactly what he'd want) and that's what they believe it is.

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As is often said, a half-truth is the most insidious lie. It certainly is true that Darth Sidious controls the Senate, as proved by the fact that they so willingly voted themselves to the status of 'Grand Chancellor Palpatine's slaves'. If however the Jedi are looking for this influence in bribery and blackmail, then they'll be looking at the senators, and not at Palpatine.

As to the ordering of the clone army, my guess would be that it was Palpatine or Dooku who placed the order, using the name of the recently deceased Jedi to give an air of respectability to the proceedings. Remember that the Kamino didn't seem to have ever met their client, but as he was Jedi presumably they wouldn't worry about him welching on the contract. Then, when the Jedi followed the carefully-arranged trail of clues through Jango Fett to the cloners, and the army came to light, it would look as though the late Master Whosit had been acting on Jedi prescience, and the clones would be like a gift from the Force.

{Edited for language - Stoo}

(Edited by Stoo 29/05/2002 16:15)

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by Whistler

You know, Sange, I think you've hit the nail on the head. These films are meant to be enjoyed with the innocence of a child and not deconstruct them as if they are anything more than inoffensive fantasies to begin with. Because I certainly don't remember, when seeing 'A New Hope' aged six, thinking "Boy, is this dialogue corny, the stroyline simplistic and the acting clunky?"

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I love kid's movies. I've no problem enjoying something for its own sake, even if I'm aware of what else is going on in the movie. AotC was simply crap. I love the original movies and I have rewatched them recently. They share some of the same flaws as AotC, to a lesser degree, but they *are* good storytelling. The characters were far more sympathetic and fun, there is genuine tension and anticipation throughout all the films (I would attribute some of this to having less score). To be fair, this is in part because I was a child when I first saw them, but not everything has stood up into adulthood.

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by Demona
(quotes)

I love kid's movies. I've no problem enjoying something for its own sake, even if I'm aware of what else is going on in the movie. AotC was simply crap. I love the original movies and I have rewatched them recently. They share some of the same flaws as AotC, to a lesser degree, but they *are* good storytelling. The characters were far more sympathetic and fun, there is genuine tension and anticipation throughout all the films (I would attribute some of this to having less score). To be fair, this is in part because I was a child when I first saw them, but not everything has stood up into adulthood.

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Besides, is it really okay to accept: "We're targetting this at kids; they won't know any better" as an excuse for poor quality control? The dialogue isn't clunky because it's innocent; it's clunky because Lucas is a terrible writer who's too wealthy and powerful for anyone to tell him.

I think a large part of the problem with the characters is that in the original trilogy, we followed them from flawed beginnings. The Jedi in the first trilogy start off as the unstoppable bad-asses of doom, which may be all well and good in a Saturday morning cartoon, but in a film prevents you from dentifying with the characters in any way.

Plus, the series badly needs a Han Solo. In large part, the first triolgy worked because Han counteracted the suffocating worthiness of his fellows, and these movies need that.

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by The Prophet
But American Propaganda?

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Oh, alright, careless exaggeration on my part because I was having fun being mean

Affirmation of all things American in a fashion that was jarring in a sci-fi film that has nothing to do with earth, let alone America. 'Death sticks', Amidala being queen for 'two terms' and other such cringe-worthy and attention-drawing lines.

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by Demona
(quotes)
Affirmation of all things American in a fashion that was jarring in a sci-fi film that has nothing to do with earth, let alone America. 'Death sticks', Amidala being queen for 'two terms' and other such cringe-worthy and attention-drawing lines.

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See; I missed that because I was too busy boggling at the notion that Amidala wasn't the youngest person ever to be elected Queen on Naboo. It seems odd enough that a planet would regularly elect a pubescent monarch, who apparently gets to raise motions in the Republican Senate. So much for separation of powers.

I also didn't think either of those was as clunky as L'il Orphan Ani's 'Are you an Angel' line in Menace, which even Lucas seemed to think needed some explanation in a universe whose only real religion is entirely non-anthropomorphic.

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by The Prophet
(quotes)

Plus, the series badly needs a Han Solo. In large part, the first triolgy worked because Han counteracted the suffocating worthiness of his fellows, and these movies need that.

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i was thinking that myself, theres no sorta rebelious good guy who is a bit more of a rogue sorta blokey. that helped make the 1st 3 work, there was a wide range of characters.

I think that Palpatine WAS the Sifo-Dyas who ordered the clone army, and that he then faked his death. It would explain why no-one knows he's a Sith lord.

And it DOES need a Han Solo.

I think that Syfo-Dias could actually be Sydious ie Darth Sydious. If you take into account that Palpatine needed a disturbance throughout the republic so that people wouldn't be supsicious when he had a massive army and special powers that supercede the senate.

So I think Sidious/Palpatine was behind the clone army which ties in with the fact that Jango said when Obi Wan was questioning him that he was hired by a man named Tyranus on one of the moons of Brago(??). Not Tyranus is Darth Tyranus aka Count Dooku.

Seeing as Dooku hired Jango to be the template for the clone army you have to think that Dooku knew about the army and had told his boss(Darth Sidious/Palpatine) about it. Seeing as Dooku was involved in the creation of the Droid Army and he also had hired Jango to kill Amidala to appease the Trade Federation Senator and get him to join in the fight. Now the Trade Federation guy is supposedley fighting against Sidious according to Dooku(although that could be a lie) which will be why Dooku has the two identities.

In other words i think that Sidious was behind the formation of both armys in order to create a situation where the senate would give him full control so that he could avert the disaster presented by the droid army.

My 2 pence worth

**I think that Syfo-Dias could actually be Sydious ie Darth Sydious**

Wow, I wish I'd thought of that...

Milky, that's pretty much the plot as I saw it.

Sidious/Palpatine engineered the whole Trade Federation/Separatist uprising (with associated droid army) as a threat to justify his assumption of emergency power. The clone army was created to provide the military backing for that act. Its creation being apparently by order of the Jedi ensured that the Jedi would then make use of the army when it appeared - thus giving it legitimacy. Dooku knows what's going on, but he's playing a part for the TF.

I like the idea that Sidious was Sifo-Dyas - nice one!

Aargh, I've just thought of a problem. Episode 1 was about 10 years back, so the Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas thing would be a bit trickier. Not impossible, though?

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by Jango
Aargh, I've just thought of a problem. Episode 1 was about 10 years back, so the Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas thing would be a bit trickier. Not impossible, though?

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He's already living two lives, why not three?

Or alternatively, Sifo was Dooku's immediate predecessor, or just another dupe!

Certainly, the name's got to be more than a coincidence. Take 'fo' from Sifo-Dyas and what do you get..?

what about the 10 jedi council people in episode 1? were any of them called sifo? maybe it was infact one of them.

Yeah episode one is set 10 years before ep 2 but that doesn't cause any problems with Sidious/Palpatine being Sifo-Dyas...During Episode 1 Sisious is already causing problems so we know that Palpatine was doing stuff then and Obi-Wan reports that the army was ordered 14 years earlier by a Master Sifo-Dyas who he had heard had since died...Palpatine would not ahve wanted to become to well known by the cloners so Sifo-Dyas could have been Palpatine but using someone else to do the physical bit eg Maul maybe..that would tie in with the dieing ten years ago bit