Ah, the wonders of virtual reality. Just spent a few hours (ok, it was broken up by the work I am meant to be doing) writting a reply, hit delete when one too many smilie appeared, which caused me to go back to the thread and loose all I'd written. So, here's trying again...

OK, the architect's speech. He does indeed alude on a number of occasions that Zion is real, but never outright states it. Just as little he sees is actually an outright statement. Other than that there have been six matrices, and that the choice of leaving for Zion was not introduced until the third one, little is stated in an outright manner. Oh, and that The One gets to choose 23 people to rebuild Zion.

So, all this stuff about entering the matrix and returning to it. Starting with "The door to the left leads back to the matrix". This discussion is clearly not taking place in a physical reality. The Architect does not have a physical component. Yet he talks of going back to the Matrix. Clearly they are in a virtual reality that is outside of what is commonly referred to as The Matrix. As such I see no problem with the Matrix being referred to as seperate from Zion, while Zion itself is another virtual reality.

Here's another quote from The Architect:

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by The Architect
As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

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Note here that he has stopped talking about The Matrix, but is now referring to The System. The rest of his speech is much more specific. The suggestion is that Zion is introduced in the Third incarnation of the Matrix as an escape and becomes part of The System, of which The Matrix is only a part. And that the choice of either being in The Matrix or in Zion is essential for the survival of The System.

However, I've just realised this creates a further problem. The Architect goes on to say that this is the sixth time Zion will have been destroyed. If no option existed in the first two versions to escape to Zion then why and how was Zion destroyed? Either this is bad scripting, or the first two versions of The Matrix are not included in the six. Maybe the current version is v3.5? Either way, the point still stands.

Also, as for Neo rejecting the rebuild option by taking the left door, this seems unlikely. While The Architect makes it clear that he thinks he should take the right door, he also makes it clear quite early on that he knows he will not. If it is important to The Architect that Neo takes the right door then why not remove the option? After all, this is a world of his creating. No, seems to me that Neo is still on track to fulfill his role until he stops The Sentinels. This alone seems to be an action that threatens the dominence of the machines.

OK, two more issues then I'll shut up for now. The Oracle as the mother. There is a line in The Architect's dialogue that now has me convinced that she is not the mother, but that Persephone is. Actually, two lines. Firstly, when Neo asks if The Oracle is the mother of The Matrix The Architect doesn't answer. Just says a condescending 'Please'. Which smacks of subterfuge. Suggesting he wants Neo to think this, but it is not the case. Later on he mentions that The One must go to the source with the code he is carrying. It strikes me that Neo is not aware of carrying any code. Now, this could be from the candy The Oracle gave him, but the kiss from Persephone seems more likely to me. Finally (ok, so that's three lines now), he says that the mother was a program originally designed to investigate 'certain aspects of the human psyche'. Again, this could be The Oracle, but it would seem to me to fit Persephone better. A program designed to investigate the irrational motives that are emotions? Does this sound like Persephone? Does this sound like investigating certain aspects of the human psyche, certain aspects that The Architect might find hard to understand, and would thus help in making The Matrix more acceptable for humans? I like to think so.

Lastly (at last!) - Zion as a virtual reality would fail for the same reasons as The Matrix. Well, yes it will fail, as is indicated in the 99.9% probability. However, not because of lack of choice. One, choice does exist, you could return to The Matrix permenantly, as offered in the first film. Two, Zion exists to keep those who find The Matrix too quite, too dull, to accept. These are our modern flat earthers. Our conspiracy theorist who argue the moon landings were faked (or that 911 was...) or believe in alien abductions, or other irrational believes that fly counter to our modern understanding of reality. It creates a reality of hellish struggle to keep these souls happy. They have made their choice and need no further choice to accept this reality. At least until The One turns up...

A further thought on the whole Zion inside the Matrix/system conundrum.

The opening of the film shows Trinity attacking the Power Plant exactly the way it later comes to be.

This is a dream had by Neo, apparently in the real world. How could that be?

As was drummed into us, Neo's choices have already been made and yadda yadda ... you'll take the left door won't you (and gosh that will really bugger up our plans won't it).

Neo only takes the left door because of the dream, which the Architect must know Neo has had to know what his choice will be, and the dream is about the inside of the matrix although Neo is outside and...

Well it makes sense to me anyway.

On a related note, here is a fairly amusing review of the Matrix Reloaded (the following link includes bad language and scenes of extreme disappointment from the start).

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by Jayjay

Note here that he has stopped talking about The Matrix, but is now referring to The System. The rest of his speech is much more specific. The suggestion is that Zion is introduced in the Third incarnation of the Matrix as an escape and becomes part of The System, of which The Matrix is only a part. And that the choice of either being in The Matrix or in Zion is essential for the survival of The System.

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I'm not sure why you claim this. He is referring to the 'program' and to the 'system', but there's absolutely nothing to suggest - or even obliquely infer - that by this he means anything other than the Matrix.

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However, I've just realised this creates a further problem. The Architect goes on to say that this is the sixth time Zion will have been destroyed. If no option existed in the first two versions to escape to Zion then why and how was Zion destroyed? Either this is bad scripting, or the first two versions of The Matrix are not included in the six. Maybe the current version is v3.5? Either way, the point still stands.

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The architect says this is the Sixth iteration counting from one integral anomaly (One) to the next. Said anomaly is a result of the 'solution', so this is the sixth Matrix to integrate the Mother's solution, and thus the sixth Zion.

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OK, two more issues then I'll shut up for now. The Oracle as the mother. There is a line in The Architect's dialogue that now has me convinced that she is not the mother, but that Persephone is. Actually, two lines. Firstly, when Neo asks if The Oracle is the mother of The Matrix The Architect doesn't answer. Just says a condescending 'Please'. Which smacks of subterfuge. Suggesting he wants Neo to think this, but it is not the case.

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While this could indicate subterfuge, I would expect the architect more to gloss over, to ignore the interruption, than try and misdirect so clumsily. If anything, he would be dismissing Neo's assumption, not trying to make him hold to it. This might still indicate that the Oracle is not the Mother of course, but I do not think that it is subterfuge; the main reason I assume everything he says to be the literal but incomplete truth is that he doesn't seem to need to lie.

I'm still sticking with my initial reaction that the Architect just hates that name, either for its pseudomystical nature or because he remembers the old internet Oracle.

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Later on he mentions that The One must go to the source with the code he is carrying. It strikes me that Neo is not aware of carrying any code. Now, this could be from the candy The Oracle gave him, but the kiss from Persephone seems more likely to me. Finally (ok, so that's three lines now), he says that the mother was a program originally designed to investigate 'certain aspects of the human psyche'. Again, this could be The Oracle, but it would seem to me to fit Persephone better. A program designed to investigate the irrational motives that are emotions? Does this sound like Persephone? Does this sound like investigating certain aspects of the human psyche, certain aspects that The Architect might find hard to understand, and would thus help in making The Matrix more acceptable for humans? I like to think so.

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Maybe, but I'm not sure. Persephone's kiss definitely seems to me to _take_ not give. Also, I'm not sure the 'code' is so much something given or done to Neo, as the simple result of his nature as the sum of the anomaly in the Matrix.

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Lastly (at last!) - Zion as a virtual reality would fail for the same reasons as The Matrix. Well, yes it will fail, as is indicated in the 99.9% probability. However, not because of lack of choice. One, choice does exist, you could return to The Matrix permenantly, as offered in the first film. Two, Zion exists to keep those who find The Matrix too quite, too dull, to accept. These are our modern flat earthers. Our conspiracy theorist who argue the moon landings were faked (or that 911 was...) or believe in alien abductions, or other irrational believes that fly counter to our modern understanding of reality. It creates a reality of hellish struggle to keep these souls happy. They have made their choice and need no further choice to accept this reality. At least until The One turns up...

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No, no, no! I'm sorry, but this is just plain wrong. The Architect makes clear that the original Matrix does not fail for being too shiny. That was his first assumption, and clearly it is what Smith believed, but the Architect was proved wrong by the failing of the second attempt, and Smith was a malfunctioning, semi-autonomous monitoring programme on the brink of attaining individual sapience, and no more knew the real history of the Matrix than Morpheus did. The Matrix fails - the program is rejected, the system crashes - if people are forced to live in it with no means of escape. If Zion is a Matrix level, then there remains no escape from - as you put it - the System, and therein lies its destruction.

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by The Prophet
If Zion is a Matrix level, then there remains no escape from - as you put it - the System, and therein lies its destruction.

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No... Zion isn't a Matrix level, it's part of the Machine's system as a whole, but it's not necessarily part of the Matrix.

The people in the Matrix need a choice and that choice is there in the possiblity of escaping to Zion. If they need a choice on the Zion level then they have the choice of whether to be plugged back into the Matrix or not ala Cypher's plans and one of the Animatrix cartoons.

IMHO
1. re: Debate over the Real/Virtual nature of Zion:

Apart from the Smith/Bane Download and Neo using his powers to put the kibosh on the sentinels – what about the depiction of the last minutes on board Captain Sorens ship, the Vigilant? A crew member run/limps across the rusting walkway, and just as one of its supports breaks (resulting in utter disaster) the voice over is that section of Morpheus’ address to the three teams: “Tonight is not an accident. There are no accidents. We have not come here by chance.” Did no one else think this significant?

And was the implication of the orphan’s last minute reminder not “There is no spoon – not even a battered, homemade Zion version of a spoon.”

2. The Mother of the Matrix.

I agree with the above post: Persephone’s peculiar, foxy behaviour is much more consonant with “An intuitive program…created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche”.

3. The Oracle – I’ll surely get my ass kicked on this one.

Neo is told: “You are the sum of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. … You are the eventuality of an anomaly which I have been unable to eliminate from a harmony of mathematical precision. The anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.”

Neo correctly deduces that the anomaly is Choice/Freewill – the architect then explains that this was the essential but “fundamentally flawed” program solution stumbled upon by the “Mother of the Matrix” which made the matrix work for 99.9% of subjects. (The flaw obviously being that the 0.01% who look around and think “This feels a bit rum” are the minority who “if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.”)

So, here’s my big pitch. After Neo has fought Seraph, the Oracles guardian, he asks “What are you?” Seraph answers “I protect that which matters most.”
The Oracle admits to being a program. And when Neo asks “Are there other programs like you?” She says, “Oh, well, not like me …”
And she’s forever emphasizing the fact that Neo will have to choose between one course of action and another. In Reloaded, for example, she says “There’s no way you can really know whether I’m here to help you or not. So it’s really up to you. You just have to make up your own mind to either accept what I’m going to tell you or reject it.”

When she offers him a sweet and he says “if you already know, how can I make a choice?” She replies “Because you didn’t come her to make the choice, you’ve already made it. You’re here to try and understand why you made it.”
Now, who would you come to ask, if not the program that enables you to make the choice in the first place?

4. Note to self: This post was too long, no one will read it, and why am I doing this on a Friday night.

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by circe
4. Note to self: This post was too long, no one will read it, and why am I doing this on a Friday night.

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Not too long at all, but then all my posts are too long. I have read it, so wrong on point two as well. And the truth is you probably did this on a Friday night for the same reason I'm replying on a Saturday night - You had nothing better to do.

So, no arse kicking here, seeing as I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Just one quesion. Are you suggesting that The Oracle is the anomaly and not Neo? And that therefore Neo is merely the tool of this program? Interesting...

Apology: Excessive use of the word “Anomaly” and its accidence in the following post.

The way I was thinking about it was this:

The architect says “the anomaly’s systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.”

“Choice” enables the Matrix to work, but contains the inherent contradiction through which the Matrix is gradually undermined, ie Its not just facilitating “Cornflakes or Cheerios?”, “khakis or freshly washed jeans?”, “scratch my nose now, or in two seconds time?”
but also “This is the real world or I feel a bit queasy, something’s not right here.”

So, to me, every one of the 0.1% who chose to reject the matrix are expressions of the anomaly, and so by their very nature they too are anomalous, in their own lesser way. But Neo is the “the sum” of these - he’s the supreme expression of the anomaly - the Uber Anomaly. (He’s Anomalicious )