nah its a good idea. then again whose to say who the good guys and bad guys are in this world either....both have done terrible attrocities, for their cause.

as to the matrix. in the first film when trinity ascapes the helicopter and it smashes against the building, a great fan fic writer wrote that agents had written the incident off to the public as terrorsits sending a helicopter into the building. how we percieveevil is how the media wants us to. not saying that what we see in the news isnt horrible but it is told in a way predudiced to the social structure of that populace.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

It's the same thing in the first Star Wars movie Luke Skywalker, last of the heroic Jedi Knights, preventing the destruction of a planet, or public enemy number one destroying government property in protest of their actions on world politics (ok here the world politics involved blowing up the whole world but hey ).

However the "man against the machine" is a long standing theme, whether the machine is the ruthless authoritarian government regime, or a mass of killer robots, or both.

Heck this goes back as far as Robin Hood (no I don't mean the Kevin Costner version) and probably further...

However, although a few have used the senseless killing of poor contractors by the Rebels (in destroying the Death Star) for comedy value, civilian casualties are not discussed in George Lucas' epic series. Matrix specifically mentions them in the fist film.

And while the enemy in The Matrix is a bunch of machines and some psychotic software, innocent humans are routinely killed in every mission into The Matrix. Am I really the only person who thinks that a blockbuster movie from the USA, in these '911'/Emperor George Bush days, is nothing short of miraculous?

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by Jayjay
Am I really the only person who thinks that a blockbuster movie from the USA, in these '911'/Emperor George Bush days, is nothing short of miraculous?

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Hollywood's controlled by evil Commies

But as to your main point -- you're absolutely right, they make no distinction between their enemies and the neutrals who merely have the potential to become enemies (and of course also the potential to become "free" should they choose to free them from the matrix); this is position common in most extremist and terrorist organisations -- anyone who dosn't support them is the enemy.

The first movie's position on this suprised me -- a brief statement acknowledging the problem and dismissing it out of hand. In many regards the second movie was even worse.

But then again this isn't a new philosophical problem (ie if it was possible to travel back in time would it be morally/ethically acceptable to murder Hitler before he did anything wrong? essentially the same problem), nor as is it the Matrix's only one -- philosophy is a dangerous place to draw artistic inspiration from, when the films creators opened this Pandora's Box they let out Descartes Demon (though when they closed it they kept the hope of a good 3rd movie!) but in playing with brains in vats they ignored the whole point of proof of knowledge under curtailment -- that Neo cannot possibley know for sure whether he has been disconnected from the matrix or whether he's still inside but merely being fed signals that make him think he's out. This looks to me like what is being set up in the final parts of Reloaded; but it would be very disappointing if the big revalation in the 3rd movie is that it's all still inside the Matrix, they never were unplugged. If the third movie ends with Neo waking up in the shower and realising it was all just a dream I shall be mightily agrieved.

Carrie Ann Moss in the shower however...

Even if its not implicitly discussed, Star Wars is definately the biggest example of Al Queda style fight for freedom. They are opressed by the empire (America), they (Al-Queda) the rebel alliance. OK, so I admit the rebels probably wouldnt stoop to killing civilians directly, but they must have killed some of them (the contractors for example), and therefore have to accept these casualities as 'collateral damage'.

I agree with what you're saying about the Matrix, I think its one of the most disturbing aspects of the films - that the violence is underpinned by a very flimsy "they're part of the system, so kill them" thang. Which means that the "hero's" kill loads of innocent civilians while getting into the building by shooting every guard (who after all were just doing there jobs)

On another tack, as callum says, once you've acknowledged the idea that you're not in the real world, then you'll never be able to know for sure that you're free. People talk about Matrix Within a Matrix, and of 'layers' but from the computer's perspective there are no layers. They're just feeding you a different set of lies when those people 'think' they're out of the matrix. There is no need for layers, only to be fed, what the computers want you to see.

So they could be stuck in the matrix forever, or they could be patients in a mental hospital having delusions. Who knows.

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by Funky Monkey
I agree with what you're saying about the Matrix, I think its one of the most disturbing aspects of the films - that the violence is underpinned by a very flimsy "they're part of the system, so kill them" thang. Which means that the "hero's" kill loads of innocent civilians while getting into the building by shooting every guard (who after all were just doing there jobs)

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I really don't see why this is surprsing or disturbing. These people (Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the people of Zion) are fighting for the freedom of the entire Human Race. Add to that the fact that any person can become an Agent of the system which none of them can stop then it's not so surprising that they kill civilians.

They have to sacrifice the good of the few for the eventual good of the many. If their prophecy comes true, vast amounts of people gain freedom and the continuation of the human race proper.

No, they don't show a particular amount of emotion about it, but why would they? They don't know the people they are killing, they are just random people that the soldiers of zion have no real emotional connection to beyond human empathy. And when fighting for the freedom of the Human Race (as i'm sure both the soldiers of zion and Al Queda think they are doing) a few thousand zombies in the system are nothing.

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by Maffrew
I really don't see why this is surprsing or disturbing. These people (Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the people of Zion) are fighting for the freedom of the entire Human Race. Add to that the fact that any person can become an Agent of the system which none of them can stop then it's not so surprising that they kill civilians.

They have to sacrifice the good of the few for the eventual good of the many. If their prophecy comes true, vast amounts of people gain freedom and the continuation of the human race proper.

No, they don't show a particular amount of emotion about it, but why would they? They don't know the people they are killing, they are just random people that the soldiers of zion have no real emotional connection to beyond human empathy. And when fighting for the freedom of the Human Race (as i'm sure both the soldiers of zion and Al Queda think they are doing) a few thousand zombies in the system are nothing.

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I think Jayjay's point is that if you replace 'These people (Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the people of Zion)' with 'These people (Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda)' then you have a movie that justifies the murder of civilians.

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by Incandenza
I think Jayjay's point is that if you replace 'These people (Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the people of Zion)' with 'These people (Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda)' then you have a movie that justifies the murder of civilians.

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Basically, yes. Not that this is surprising (or even wrong) in of itself, but in the climate it was filmed and released in.

To make things clearer, I am not saying there is anything wrong with this tactic. I have long argued that one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. Based on tactics alone, I see no moral superiority between the American Revolutionists, the French Revolutionists, the Bolsheviks, the Viet Cong, the IRA, the Contras, the French Resistance or any other paramilitary organization. I am not arguing that the tactics used by either the Rebel Alliance or the people of Zion are wrong. Just that this film was released without any moral outcry.

When Pulp Fiction and Trainspotting (two films with a very anti-drugs story line) were released they were met with moral outcry for promoting drugs. If I remember rightly, Emporer Bush's daddy was one of the loudest disclaimants. Yet at a time when the War On Terrorism has seemingly replaced the equally stupid (and failed) War On Drugs, it seems odd that no one has tried to hijack the film for more abuse at Terrorism.

Is that any clearer?

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by Maffrew
(quotes)

I really don't see why this is surprsing or disturbing. These people (Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the people of Zion) are fighting for the freedom of the entire Human Race. Add to that the fact that any person can become an Agent of the system which none of them can stop then it's not so surprising that they kill civilians.

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Well actually they believe they are fighting for the future of the human race. They could just be a load of crackpots.

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They have to sacrifice the good of the few for the eventual good of the many.

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Surports my crackpots idea really That argument has long been used by madmen who say they are taking the "long view" or looking at "the big picture".

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If their prophecy comes true, vast amounts of people gain freedom and the continuation of the human race proper.

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And yet if they're just a bunch of crackpots then they've just gone around killing innocent civilians for something they believed in.

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No, they don't show a particular amount of emotion about it, but why would they?

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Maybe cos they're human?

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They don't know the people they are killing, they are just random people that the soldiers of zion have no real emotional connection to beyond human empathy.

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And on the Al Queda thang, im sure that's how the terrorists viewed the lives of those at the WTC.

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And when fighting for the freedom of the Human Race (as i'm sure both the soldiers of zion and Al Queda think they are doing) a few thousand zombies in the system are nothing.

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Hang on a sec, first they were people, now they're zombies?

Only people with complete contempt for human life would see other humans as being 'zombies'

You see, if the characters of the Matrix really do act in the manner you speak of, as a terrorist organisation, then they're not exactly all American hero's are they?

(Edited by Funky Monkey 22/06/2003 09:30)

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by Funky Monkey
Hang on a sec, first they were people, now they're zombies?

Only people with complete contempt for human life would see other humans as being 'zombies'

You see, if the characters of the Matrix really do act in the manner you speak of, as a terrorist organisation, then they're not exactly all American hero's are they?

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They are people and zombies in a sense. Of course they are people, but they wander around in the Matrix without any clue about what is going on around them. Add that to the fact that any of them can become an Agent and kill whoever they like, killing them in the name of Zion is justified; if your one of the terrorists. If you are an agent of the system, or a person inside the Matrix then of course it's horrible, but everything comes from, as Obi Wan Kenobi said, a different point of view.

No they aren't all american heroes, and they shouldn't be. Anyone with an inch of sense watching the film can see they are fighting the system as terrorists, but it's not so surprising that it's being portrayed by Hollywood really. America supports terrorists as long as it fits it's own agenda.