Errrm

Do American tv programmes have quotas? And, what do you mean by "British Government". I wouldn't think there is a statistical over- representation of ethnic minorities (or indeed women) in the cabinet, if anything the reverse is true.

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by null
I wouldn't think there is a statistical over- representation of ethnic minorities (or indeed women) in the cabinet, if anything the reverse is true.

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[quote]by Avenger

Actually the New Labour (run by the Prime Minister Tony Blair) has a large number of female politicians, not split fifty/fifty but a lot, they activly recruited women about three years ago, for the very reasons in my first post.

Kieran_Frost

Yes, they actively looked for ways to increase the numbers of women labout MPs. Because it was obvious that Parliament was unrepresentative of our Society. I'm not sure that I understand your point, unless it is that women are not capable of being as good MPs as men are?! If that's not your point, then as you say, women are still under represented, as are ethnic minorities. What is wrong with looking at the reasons why this might be so, and putting measures in place to help correct the imbalance?

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by KieranFrost
Fine... except if you have a better qualified person, who's white... they wouldn't get the job and people except this! Why do people feel uncomfortable with hiring white people? Hire the best actor because he's the best, if a role is made, don't say this person must be white/back/french/female/gay... just hire the best.

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Because there are issues and storylines that can be explored with characters of certain ethnic origin, gender and sexuality, which couldn't otherwise. There is also the matter of having a mix of characters which reflects real life to some degree.

In almost every case, certain details of the character will be worked out prior to casting, and then an actor will be cast to fit the role. If you think about it, it really can't be done any other way - To take a really big and obvious example (don't watch ER so can't comment there) do you think that the role of Buffy should have been offered to men who may have been superior actors to Sarah Michelle Gellar, when it was central to Joss Whedons conception of the show that the character be female?

The issues faced in day to day life by someone vary with their social, racial and sexual profile. An ensemble drama such as ER will want to explore as wide a variety of storylines as possible and varying the race, gender and sexuality of the protagonists enables them to do that.

This is particularly relevant for the writers of a show like ER whose characters are likely to experience very similar career related issues (What does this character do ... he's a doctor, what does this character do ... he's a doctor ... repeat ad infinitum).

And then there is the question of what television should be depicting. Many people in the US and UK (for starters) remain intolerant of racial and sexual minorities. By depicting characters from minority groups in positive roles within a multicultural environment, it may be possible to erode years of prejudice and mistrust. A good recent example of this is the character of Senator Palmer in '24'. African-American presidential candidates are well away from political realities in the US but depict it as a realistic possibility in fiction enough times and that may change.

NB - Buffy is particularly poor in its depiction of minorities who don't appeal to its core demographic (i.e., lesbians).

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by Avenger
Because it was obvious that Parliament was unrepresentative of our Society.

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Yes society should be represented by all, but that doesn't mean lowering the standards of entry or making it impossible for other, better qualified people to get in due to gender or race. Women and men can be just as good as each other in politics and everything, but if no compitent women apply for the job yet very compitent men do, it should go to the women just for their gender. Hope that cleared up my point, sorry I'm not very articulate (oops spelling), if still unclear I'm sorry

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by In A State Of Dan
do you think that the role of Buffy should have been offered to men who may have been superior actors to Sarah Michelle Gellar, when it was central to Joss Whedons conception of the show that the character be female?

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Obviously Buffy is a special case and rarely in shows is gender an issue, of course in a show if your making a love interest and the character is straight it has to go to the opposite sex, but the race can be totally optional... so if they were making a new romance for Giles, yes it must be female but from that point on it should go to the best actress, not who's skin colour fits.

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by Incandenza
A good recent example of this is the character of Senator Palmer in '24'. African-American presidential candidates are well away from political realities in the US but depict it as a realistic possibility in fiction enough times and that may change.

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I assume your use of the word 'realistic' in the same paragraph as '24' is ironic.

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by KieranFrost
Obviously Buffy is a special case and rarely in shows is gender an issue

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If I thought Buffy was a special case, I wouldn't have used that example. What makes you think it is, or that gender is rarely an issue?

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of course in a show if your making a love interest and the character is straight it has to go to the opposite sex, but the race can be totally optional... so if they were making a new romance for Giles, yes it must be female but from that point on it should go to the best actress, not who's skin colour fits.

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As I recall, Giles' last love interest was black, but nothing was made of the fact. Perhaps that's what they did?

[quote]by KieranFrost
(quotes)

Yes society should be represented by all, but that doesn't mean lowering the standards of entry or making it impossible for other, better qualified people to get in due to gender or race. (quotes)

Of course, that presupposes that our examination systems and qualifications are entirely independent of race- or gender-based codification, which may or may not be the case. It also assumes that, if equally competent people of different genders and/or races apply for the same job, the choice will ultimately be made by coin-toss, which seems somewhat unlikely.

Case in point. A little while ago the Conservative party put up for selection a black prospective candidate in one constituency. Among many claims and counterclaims that he was unwelcome not because of his skin colour but because he wasna unwanted external appointment, he was not selected. Question being, all things being equal, would he *ever* have been selected if an equally competent (and competence is a difficult thing to judge exactly) and/or suitable white man was running against him? I'd have to say no.

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by KieranFrost
Doesn't anyone else get annoyed by the fact TV programms and other area in life feel a need to over compensate for minorities....ER is a good example of this, in series 8, the cast loose Malucci (latin), Cleo and Benton (african-american) and for a time Debs (chinese). So the executives, after nearly having heart attacks because "oh no - too many white people", decided to add the character of Gallant (african-american)...If I was an actor would I want to get a role because of my skin colour? not because I could act, but because I was black, knowing everyone else was there for their abilities save me...
Kieran_Frost

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No, I don't get annoyed by the appearance of blacks, Latinos, or Asians in American televisions shows. If you watched television in the U.S., you'd realize that most casts are still overwhelmingly white. Recent studies have also shown this. Believe me, the overabundance of blacks or other "minorities" in American television is not a problem.

As for ER, I don't watch it regularly. So I can't comment on what is shown week to week. But if I'm not mistaken, the cast started out primarily white. Since the show is set in Chicago, a city that has a fair share of blacks and Latinos, I just think it's more realistic to depict a multi-racial cast, especially in a public hospital.

There are a lot of American shows that go totally in the opposite direction. For instance, Friends. That's set in New York City, but you don't see any black, Latino, or Asian people. What's up with that? I live right outside New York City. I used to work in New York City, so I was there every day. Whites are a minority in New York City. Most people are black, Latino, or Asian. It doesn't bother me that the cast is mostly white. But I wouldn't think it was "affirmative action gone wild" if they added a black or Latino to the cast in some capacity--even if not one of the core group of friends.

Lastly, I think it's unfair to say that one has to "lower standards" in order to make casts multi-racial. That assumes that actors who are not white have no talent, and the only way they can get a job is through quotas. That's just not true.

Hang on, was that just a sensible, passionately but intelligently argued response? Based on relevant knowledge?

There *goes* the neighbourhood. It's political correctness gone mad.

Sorry Kieran but I don't see things the same way as you do.

Concerning your example of government. Firstly, the entry level hasn't dropped. You still need the approval of the electorate to get anywhere. Secondly I can think of no member of Blair's government who should be replaced by a more able white straight male, given some provisos. That is, that there replacement would not be for their political opinions. I may not like the majority of Blair's ministers, but that's due to political differences. Is there someone on the backbenches who, while sharing the same politics and slavish loyalty to the PM, are more deserving than the current ministers? The problem isn't that people are appointed because of their gender/race/sexual orientation, but that they are appointed because of their blind ambition and loyalty to Blair and the New Tory idea...

As for TV, I have no evidence that any actor has been given a job to fill a quota. Sometimes there will be actors not seen for audition, as they do not fit the description of the character, whether because of physical shape, age, gender, race, or whatever. I don't have a problem with that and don't see tokenism, on the level you're suggesting on my screens. Instead, I see a complete lack of shows whose leading character is Black, Female or Gay. Same goes for film. Those characters tend to be secondary to the story line.

So Kieran, why is it you assume that there is some kind of 'PC quota' on TV? What has lead you to the conclusion that such a thing exists?

That's one of the things I love about this site. If Kieran had posted this thread in Independent Argument, the second, maybe third, definitely fourth respondent would have branded him a Nazi/BNP fan boy/Hitler Youth. Take your pick.

On T21, however, he gets sweet reason and understanding

I believe Part II of the Race Relations Act (Article 5, paragraph (a)?) covers dispensation of the need for 'quotas' in the acting profession. It really is up to the studios, and tokenism is still the norm (Halle, you go, girl!).

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by Sandia
No, I don't get annoyed by the appearance of blacks, Latinos, or Asians in American televisions shows

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Wow! steady on, that's *NOT* (little emphasis here) what I said. I don't get annoyed by black, Latinos, or Asians appearing on the TV, I dislike the fact sometimes they were chosen for skin colour not acting ability.

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by Sandia
There are a lot of American shows that go totally in the opposite direction. For instance, Friends.

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True, Friends is a white majority show, but at the same time, shows like Brandy or Fresh Prince of Bel Air are totally black, but neither show makes any big deal about it, which is good, the colour of the casts skin shouldn't make any difference.

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by Sandia
Lastly, I think it's unfair to say that one has to "lower standards" in order to make casts multi-racial. That assumes that actors who are not white have no talent, and the only way they can get a job is through quotas. That's just not true.

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Again, not what I said. Obviously your talent isn't any relation to skin colour, but in some cases, the bar is lowered, for the sole purpose of getting a coloured of female member in. Also, may I add one of my faviote actresses is black, Alfre Woodard. No bar need to be lowered for her, because she so damn good

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by Tannhauser
Like Triple H?

Am I alone in seeing a slight difference between "Why on Earth should people be allowed into TV shows because they are black/female, not for their acting ability" and "all hail Friends and the Fresh Prince! Race shouldn't matter!"

Do you think it was just one of those days when all the good actors auditioning just *happened* to be black, Kieran?

Or, conversely, are we ready to accept the possibility that some studios create a certain number of shows with all-black casts (FPOBA, the Cosby Show, Sister Sister, Keenan'n'Kel)? Now, black people are in general a sucky demographic for advertising, so your best hope to get better rates per second is to get some sort of crossover appeal thing (Cosby's avuncularity and status as an upstanding member of the middle class, or Will Smith's crossover through his hip-hop work, which is primarily consumed by white teenagers). This crossing-over is, incidentally, I suspect why Will Smith and (particularly) Bill Cosby became industry players long before the Wayans brothers, who had to make Scary Movie before making any real inroads....

So what is the point here? The point is, perhaps, that as Joe implies, this "PC" approach Kieran detects seems to be pretty superficial. Offhand I can think of maybe ten "name", first-rank, movie-selling black actors (Snipes, Berry, Fishburne, Washington, Freeman, Jackson, Diesel, Murphy, Rock, Lawrence - people who could credibly be the "selling" male or female lead of a mainstream movie" ) - any more? How about black directors (the Wayans, Singleton, van Peebles, Lee)? Black producers? Black chairmen of AOL/Time Warner?

Anyone?

Bueller?


(Edited by Tannhauser 09/04/2002 13:37)

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by KieranFrost
I dislike the fact sometimes they were chosen for skin colour not acting ability.

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For example?

And then ... so what?

Jennifer Aniston was chosen for Friends because of her fine comic timing and broad acting range?

Kevin Sorbo was carefully selected from a broad field of classically trained actors to appear in Andromeda?

Not to stray off topic, but I think it is unfair to suggest that Kevin Sorbo's acting ability is not *exactly* suited to the demands of Andromeda....

In response to Kieran Frost above, I think I correctly characterized your original post.

But more important than that, I really don't understand at all why you insist that the appearance of "minority" actors in certain television shows has to somehow be related to lowering standards to take less talented people just to get someone with a different skin color in the cast. Do you realize what an incredibly strong and negative statement that is? Where is your proof for this?

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by Incandenza
Jennifer Aniston was chosen for Friends because of her fine comic timing and broad acting range?

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I'm afraid I can't reply to that, simply because I think Jeniffer Aniston is a very good actress, containing subtles in comedy that others lack.

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by Sandia
In response to Kieran Frost above, I think I correctly characterized your original post.

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Well that's nice dear... but since it was *my* post, I can tell you that is not what it said, meant or even referred to!

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by Sandia
But more important than that, I really don't understand at all why you insist that the appearance of "minority" actors in certain television shows has to somehow be related to lowering standards to take less talented people just to get someone with a different skin color in the cast.

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I am not insisting anything. I stated in some (cannot emphasis this enough and I don't know how to put this in capital, sorry:upset cases an actor is hired because they are black or asian or whatever (tangent: is the right word asian or oriental, if anyone knows the right term please post, thanks in advance), which is true. No-one can tell me Gallant was created because they felt another character was needed, it's not true, he was created because they were running low on minority actors. That doesn't mean he's a bad actor, when he was allergic to the dog named Stinky, he did a very convincing comic turn, when he angrey, when he's happy he's convincing. My problem is *why* he was brought in... and the same applies in politics.

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by Tannhauser
Offhand I can think of maybe ten "name", first-rank, movie-selling black actors (Snipes, Berry, Fishburne, Washington, Freeman, Jackson, Diesel, Murphy, Rock, Lawrence -

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Shame on you, you missed Whooppie Goldberg (spelling?) Will Smith, Jade Pinkett (spelling?) and I'm sure there are loads more... as for directors, no clue sorry, only know names, no idea what nationality they are

Also oriental stars Chou-yung Fat (now I know there's a spelling mistake in there), Jet Li, Jackie Chan and the lovely Michelle Yeoh and Ming Na (Wen). I'd also like to add, I cannot respect Ming-Na (Wen) for her voice in Disney's Mulan.

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KieranFrost
I am not insisting anything. I stated in some (cannot emphasis this enough and I don't know how to put this in capital, sorry cases an actor is hired because they are black or asian or whatever (tangent: is the right word asian or oriental, if anyone knows the right term please post, thanks in advance), which is true.

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Well, yes. I don't think anyone has disagreed with that anywhere. What I do disagree with is your implication that this is down to some form of political correctness or quota-filling.

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No-one can tell me Gallant was created because they felt another character was needed, it's not true, he was created because they were running low on minority actors.

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Well, I'm not going to tell you, I don't know since I don't even watch the show. You do however seem to be linking the fact that you think the character is superfluous to the show to the actors skin colour with, as far as I can tell, no evidence. I'm sure you could think of characters added to shows that you considered unnecessary which weren't members of any 'minority' if you tried hard enough..

Oh, and not saying a word about Jennifer Aniston.