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by Jayjay
Anarchy certainly does not mean you could murder all my friends and family. Liberty can only exist when it is applied to everyone, and murder and similar crimes are the removal of liberty, not the enacting of it.

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How do you protect that liberty without state?

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by Jayjay
What I don't see is why someone who works in a sewer should live a shorter, more impoverished life than someone who designs cars. I want to see equality of opportunity;

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No, what you are describing is equality of outcome, not the same thing at all.

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by Jayjay
It is capital and its inevitable hierarchically uneven distribution that stops people achieving their dreams

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This sounds quite nice until the practicalities of it become focused on. The problem is that human happiness is dependent on self actualisation. With equality of outcome, perfect redistribution of wealth etc comes the inability to differentiate yourself from the whole.

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by Jayjay
And there was me thinking I'd argued for liberation via democracy

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How do you have democracy without state?

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by Incandenza
This sounds quite nice until the practicalities of it become focused on. The problem is that human happiness is dependent on self actualisation. With equality of outcome, perfect redistribution of wealth etc comes the inability to differentiate yourself from the whole.

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Which is touched upon in the Movie "The Matrix" and the Manga/Anime Appleseed (which we're currently discussing over inthe film section)

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by Incandenza
How do you protect that liberty without state?

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The state does not engender liberty but reduces it. The state is the surrender of personal liberty to an external body, be it elected or otherwise. It is a hierarchical power structure with inherent discrepancies of privilege. Liberty of the individual can only be secured in conjunction with social equality and co-operation of the individual within social organizations through solidarity. There are many methods in which this can be achieved. As an example there is direct democracy, where delegates act purely on a direct mandate from their community.

In other words liberty is not posible within a state (or any hierarchical structure) and is only possible when the individual accepts full responsibility for all their actions and works in co-operation with the rest of society. Liberty is protected through solidarity, not coercion.

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by Incandenza
No, what you are describing is equality of outcome, not the same thing at all.

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No, I’m not. Equality of Opportunity through the abolition of capitol and hierarchy in general does not lead to equality of outcome. Why should it? I have not argued for equal wage-slavery, as this would still require a hierarchical structure for distribution and would still require the selling of labour for monetary reward. What I am advocating is that old Socialist motto ‘To each according to their needs, from each according to their ability’. This is a world away from Equality of Outcome. In fact, it is Capitalism that leads to conformity and therefore Equality of Outcome.

Personally, I don't think Anarchy is achievable until mainstream culture loses its obsession with consumerism and the belief that more money will cure all woes. We also have to loose our obsession with possession and property. These are huge core revolutions to society's values, which is why I am under no illusion that this is just around the corner.

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by Incandenza
How do you have democracy without state?

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As mentioned above democracy does not need to be hierarchical. IÂ’ve taken up enough room on a thread about Communism and Fascism with my thoughts on Anarchism, so if you want greater clarity check the above thread and specifically section I for more detail.