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I think people should vote, or they have no right to complain when someone they don't want gets voted in..
Posted: 23:08 May 02 2002
Local Elections
Seeing as there have been a couple of political threads posted recently i feel safe posting this one now!
It's the local government elections today (may 2nd) and the reports in the ever reliable papers is that turnout is going to be the lowest for a long time which is potentially dangerous given that the BNP are standing candidates in many areas where there have been troubles.
My personal opinion is that its very important to register a vote even if you do feel that none of the candidates represent your point of view. Many people I know who don't vote say that they won't because they don't believe that any political party is right for them or because they don't believe it will make a difference. Unfortunately the widely held belief with the powers that be is that people are staying away from the polls because they simply aren't bothered.
I feel that there is a fundamental difference between these points of view and if everybody who didn't vote because they don't feel fairly represented or that they don't have a real choice all went to the polling stations and spoiled their ballot paper (perhaps breifly outlining the reason why) then we would have a more accurate picture of how the nation really feels about democracy in practice.
I normally vote Labour (Yeah Yeah boo hiss and all that) but in my ward this year my candidate is a horrible incompetant man who treats me and my mother like we are lesser human beings because we are female so - i'm not voting for him - Anybody who knows me will appriciate how unbelievably ridiculous it is to imagine me voting Conservative but I probably will on this occasion because of the three candidates he will be my best representative on the local council - But that defiantely doesn't mean that I want a Conservative run council or that i want Ian Duncan Smith to take over from Tony Blair.
BTW - did you know that all spoilt ballot papers are shown to the candidates for verification so they would see your views and the numbers are logged!
I also want to take this oppertunity to urge any T21 members who are old enough to vote.
Ok - that's my two penneth worth. What does anyone else think?
***SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT***
And by the way Miss Kitty Fantastic and Funky Monkey - If you two live in Sunnyhurst ward (can't remember if you do or not, but if you do) go and vote for Dave Hollings he does a great job and works really hard for teh local community!!! (That's my Mum's bloke btw!)
***SHAMELESS PLUG OVER***
(Edited by Velvet Glove 02/05/2002 16:43)
It's the local government elections today (may 2nd) and the reports in the ever reliable papers is that turnout is going to be the lowest for a long time which is potentially dangerous given that the BNP are standing candidates in many areas where there have been troubles.
My personal opinion is that its very important to register a vote even if you do feel that none of the candidates represent your point of view. Many people I know who don't vote say that they won't because they don't believe that any political party is right for them or because they don't believe it will make a difference. Unfortunately the widely held belief with the powers that be is that people are staying away from the polls because they simply aren't bothered.
I feel that there is a fundamental difference between these points of view and if everybody who didn't vote because they don't feel fairly represented or that they don't have a real choice all went to the polling stations and spoiled their ballot paper (perhaps breifly outlining the reason why) then we would have a more accurate picture of how the nation really feels about democracy in practice.
I normally vote Labour (Yeah Yeah boo hiss and all that) but in my ward this year my candidate is a horrible incompetant man who treats me and my mother like we are lesser human beings because we are female so - i'm not voting for him - Anybody who knows me will appriciate how unbelievably ridiculous it is to imagine me voting Conservative but I probably will on this occasion because of the three candidates he will be my best representative on the local council - But that defiantely doesn't mean that I want a Conservative run council or that i want Ian Duncan Smith to take over from Tony Blair.
BTW - did you know that all spoilt ballot papers are shown to the candidates for verification so they would see your views and the numbers are logged!
I also want to take this oppertunity to urge any T21 members who are old enough to vote.
Ok - that's my two penneth worth. What does anyone else think?
***SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT***
And by the way Miss Kitty Fantastic and Funky Monkey - If you two live in Sunnyhurst ward (can't remember if you do or not, but if you do) go and vote for Dave Hollings he does a great job and works really hard for teh local community!!! (That's my Mum's bloke btw!)
***SHAMELESS PLUG OVER***
(Edited by Velvet Glove 02/05/2002 16:43)
17 Replies and 2335 Views in Total.
Posted: 23:08 May 02 2002 
However, in my experience, the candidates don't look at the spoilt papers, but get a nominated adjudicator to look over them (usually a party activist), who rarely has any interest except to make sure that the counter isn't being too zealous and has thrown away what is actually a genuine vote for their candidate.
by Sydney
BTW - did you know that all spoilt ballot papers are shown to the candidates for verification so they would see your views and the numbers are logged!
But the overall point you're making I agree with, although I do think it is better to vote for who you dislike least and has a serious chance of winning, instead of making protest votes - that's how people like Le Pen make it to the second round of Presidential elections...
(Edited by Jayjay 02/05/2002 23:20)
Posted: 23:19 May 02 2002 Ermmmmmmm. OK. My experience disagrees with yours. Every count I've been to (Local and General) the candidates have seen the papers because the decision is ultimately with them to contest or not - no one else has authority to argue!
by Jayjay
(quotes)
However, in my experience, the candidates don't look at the spoilt papers, but get a nominated adjudicator to look over them
Posted: 09:13 May 03 2002 
Lib Dem hold 
I think we're still the only major city (outside London) in the country without a Labour led council.
I think we're still the only major city (outside London) in the country without a Labour led council.
Posted: 10:54 May 03 2002
3 BMP seats in Burnley - and that was with a relatively high turnout 
On the plus side. My mum's partner won his seat (again!) with about 60% of the vote
On the plus side. My mum's partner won his seat (again!) with about 60% of the vote
Posted: 11:12 May 03 2002
I always vote. And i vote conservative.
Not because i think they are a good party any more. Nor because i want them in power. Indeed in their current state that are not ready to lead.
I vote for them because i dont believe in Labour's or the Lib Dem's policies.
OK, i dont agree with most of the conservatives either but i agree with a few more of theirs than the others.
My vote does count even though time and time again my town votes labour. Labour council, labour MP, labour everything. I should just give up and stop voting but i dont, and i never will.
Not because i think they are a good party any more. Nor because i want them in power. Indeed in their current state that are not ready to lead.
I vote for them because i dont believe in Labour's or the Lib Dem's policies.
OK, i dont agree with most of the conservatives either but i agree with a few more of theirs than the others.
My vote does count even though time and time again my town votes labour. Labour council, labour MP, labour everything. I should just give up and stop voting but i dont, and i never will.
Posted: 11:14 May 03 2002
Well Done Cat - I wish more people thought like you.
I feel sick. One of the BNP seats in Burnley was won by FOUR votes over the Labour candidate
Words fail me at this point.
I feel sick. One of the BNP seats in Burnley was won by FOUR votes over the Labour candidate
Words fail me at this point.
Posted: 11:29 May 03 2002 But it's a victory for the democratic system, that just shows if you have the policies the people want and enough folks can be bothered to turn out to vote, it is possible to get elected no matter how "unconventional" your policies.
by Sydney
Well Done Cat - I wish more people thought like you.
I feel sick. One of the BNP seats in Burnley was won by FOUR votes over the Labour candidate
Words fail me at this point.
Posted: 12:08 May 03 2002 Unconventional in this instance meaning racist. A BNP spokesman on the radio this morning agreed that their policies advocate discrimination based on skin colour. No doubt Stan Boardman is a paid up member (got to love Leeds Utd).
by MonSTeR
But it's a victory for the democratic system, that just shows if you have the policies the people want and enough folks can be bothered to turn out to vote, it is possible to get elected no matter how "unconventional" your policies.
But hey, aint no black in the union jack.
Posted: 16:58 May 03 2002 But, as Mon says, we live in a democratic society. You can't have one rule for one party and another rule for another party. The electorate get the council, or MPs, they vote for. There's no one else to blame no matter how angry you may feel about it (and, yes, I can't abide the BNP either before you ask!) If people object then they get their next opportunity at the next election. And the prospective candidates will have to work harder to convince disgruntled voters to vote for them and *not* the BNP.
by Incandenza
(quotes)
Unconventional in this instance meaning racist. A BNP spokesman on the radio this morning agreed that their policies advocate discrimination based on skin colour. No doubt Stan Boardman is a paid up member (got to love Leeds Utd).
But hey, aint no black in the union jack.
(Edited by Whistler 03/05/2002 19:25)
Posted: 19:21 May 03 2002 
No way I could ever associate the word "vitory" with what's happened. It highlights the greatest danger of the democratic system: that in the right circumstances, dangerous extremists can and sometimes do win. But compared to the alternative - the likes of the BNP being driven underground and becoming infinitely more insidious - it's the lesser of two evils.
by MonSTeR
(quotes)
But it's a victory for the democratic system, that just shows if you have the policies the people want and enough folks can be bothered to turn out to vote, it is possible to get elected no matter how "unconventional" your policies.
It may only be three council seats, but it'll give the BNP a huge impetus, and considering the votes for them were as high as 18% in some areas, there's plenty of harted out there for them to exploit. Playing on the racial tensions in areas such as Burnley and Oldham (where they just missed out on a seat) is proving horribly effective, and needs a concerted effort by the mainstream parties to counter it; including adressing the issues the BNP are expoliting - such as immigration - frankly with the voters. The parties need to reconnect with the people, and what's happened in Burnley shows all to strarkly the alternative.
As for those who voted for the BNP: I don't care how marginalised they feel, or how much "threat" they percieve certain ethnic minorites to be, they've absolutely no excuse for what they've done. To say they should feel the deepest shame barely begins to cover it. A bit of Medieval-style flagellation could well be worth considering ...
(Edited by Byron 03/05/2002 20:09)
Posted: 20:08 May 03 2002
This is just to give people a bit of background into the situation in Burnley and Oldham and is not my personal opinion (I'm sitting on the fence as usual 
):
This is something that's received a lot of coverage on the local news. It seems many of the people who voted for the BNP candidates were doing so in protest at the council's handling of their communities.
In Oldham and Burnley there are large Asian communities. The white community feel that in an effort to provide equality, the council have over corrected and favoured the Asian community with funding and in policing methods. The white community feel that they're the ones being racially discriminated against and was the major factor behind the race riots in the two towns last year.
It's simply a case of consumer democracy driven to the extreme. The majority of people in those towns are not racist. All they want is for equality to be restored and the BNP know that and have tailored their campaign towards it. A spokesman for the party, commenting on their victories, today claimed that they would treat everyone they represented equally.
):This is something that's received a lot of coverage on the local news. It seems many of the people who voted for the BNP candidates were doing so in protest at the council's handling of their communities.
In Oldham and Burnley there are large Asian communities. The white community feel that in an effort to provide equality, the council have over corrected and favoured the Asian community with funding and in policing methods. The white community feel that they're the ones being racially discriminated against and was the major factor behind the race riots in the two towns last year.
It's simply a case of consumer democracy driven to the extreme. The majority of people in those towns are not racist. All they want is for equality to be restored and the BNP know that and have tailored their campaign towards it. A spokesman for the party, commenting on their victories, today claimed that they would treat everyone they represented equally.
Posted: 20:27 May 03 2002 Yes I agree, since the other partys main point was vote for us or the BNP get in (no I dont like them eithier). At the end of the day each of the candidates have got to make us want to vote for them, and to me a lot of them aint making the effort.
by Whistler
(quotes)
If people object then they get their next opportunity at the next election. And the prospective candidates will have to work harder to convince disgruntled voters to vote for them and *not* the BNP.
(Edited by Whistler 03/05/2002 19:25)
Posted: 20:36 May 03 2002 It may just be me, but that objective seems at odds somewhat with repratriating ethinic minorities (a stated BNP policy).
by DJ Billy
It's simply a case of consumer democracy driven to the extreme. The majority of people in those towns are not racist. All they want is for equality to be restored and the BNP know that and have tailored their campaign towards it. A spokesman for the party, commenting on their victories, today claimed that they would treat everyone they represented equally.
I hope that most of the BNP's support did come though ignorance, but I still have zero sympathy for those who voted for them. I find it very hard to believe they had never heard of what the BNP was or stood for - "BNP" is practically a byword for "neo-nazi" in the common venacular after all. Even if the votes were mainly out of protest, they were still inexcusable for anyone who considers themselves a decent and tolerant citizen.
Among many things, this proves that you should take a good, hard look at the policies of a party you give your support to before voting.
Posted: 20:43 May 03 2002 
I agree with much of the comment above, however I think that it may be no bad thing that the BNP has won these council seats. As it may be no bad thing that Le Pen won through to the final ballot in France. Last week France was totally bored by the election and disconnected from their electoral process. Since the result people have woken up to the importance of the decisions that they make, it was heartening to see millions of ordinary citizens on the street on May Day to protest against the National Front. Le Pen will certainly lose tomorrow, hopefully there will be a much larger turnout to express the total rejection of his policies. Meanwhile, back to Burnley, the BNP is now in a position where they have to actually prove that they can have an effect in a position of authority. Instead of mouthing off easy soundbites they will be expected to make a difference to the lives of their constituents. They will fail, people will see that they are not capable of backing up what they say.
On a different note, does anyone else think that an extremely funny form of protest against the BNP councillors would be if they were to be beseiged by various of their constituents from ethnic backgrounds, with problems for their Councillor to sort out for them?
On a different note, does anyone else think that an extremely funny form of protest against the BNP councillors would be if they were to be beseiged by various of their constituents from ethnic backgrounds, with problems for their Councillor to sort out for them?
Posted: 07:42 May 04 2002 It shouldn't be though. Nazi implies something foreign, a form of fascism originating in Germany.
by Byron
"BNP" is practically a byword for "neo-nazi" in the common venacular after all.
The United Kingdom has a fine tradition of racism of its own and it is this tradition that the BNP represent the continuation of.
As far as the points above about democracy ... it seems to me that any party whose stated objective is an all white society is treading a pretty fine line when it comes to inciting racial hatred.
Posted: 09:23 May 04 2002 Fine line? I think that's so far over the line that it's started lapping itself.
by Incandenza
it seems to me that any party whose stated objective is an all white society is treading a pretty fine line when it comes to inciting racial hatred.
That Nazi refers to a defunct German party doesn't stop the BNP (or NF, or Mosley's BUF) being inspired and modelled on that particular brand of Fascism.
What happened was not a victory for Democracy, but a clear signifier of its failings. And I don't blame the parties or the politicians, but us, the electorate. We get the party and candidates we deserve, because we expect everything to be done for us and presented in the manner we want without doing a single thing to make it happen - we are a nation of lazy brats who expect someone else to do all the work for us. The BNP won through laziness and apathy, and our refusal to take the responsibility that comes through self-governance.
Posted: 12:50 May 07 2002