The bar is always set much higher for politicians and they can be fired dismissed or just slapped on the wrist or even left well alone for any misdemeanor or indiscretion. What they've done and their "punishment" don't necessarily go hand in hand. However race relations are a very sensitive issue politically and the conservative party may have thought to make an impression on the electorate given the recent "Le Pen" incident in France, or there may even be more political infighting behind closed doors that lead to the dismissal.

The term "ten a penny" in itself isn't offensive, but taken in the context of this joke it was. The term was used to refer to things of no perceived value to the person being referred to, i.e. the cuban throwing a cigar out of the window. To imply that a whole race of human beings is worthless is extremely offensive.

On the other point about her being in a private club away from political contacts, as a politician she should have had better sense than to say something which is obviously ripe for use as a weapon against her. When you choose to put yourself in the public eye (as she did by choosing to enter politics), nothing is off the record, nothing is private, and everything is fair game.

Where do you draw the line between "not intending to offend anyone" and "deliberately being offensive"? If IDS had given her a slapped wrist, surely it would be easy for everyone to say something totally outrageous and claim "I didn't mean to offend anyone"?

I don't think there's been an over-reaction, I think there's been swift justice and he was absolutely right in his judgement that she was not the sort of politician he wanted in his shadow cabinet.

My God!! I've just defended the Tory Party !!!

*reels away for a stiff drink and lay down*

Ann Winterton, Conservative MP, was sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for "joking" about throwing "Paki's" from a train because they were "ten a penny". That is not, now or ever, a remotely acceptable "joke". If some people can't see that I suggest they examine their values!

It is an overeaction but she is a politician and should really watch what she says.

That said the media has blown this out of all proportion.

I don't think it's an overreaction at all. I think it is a reaction, and an entirely logical one since IDS is attempting to separate the Tories from their popular perception as a bunch of calcified racists.

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by Selig
That is not, now or ever, a remotely acceptable "joke". If some people can't see that I suggest they examine their values!

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It was lighthearted, she obviously didn't intend it to offend anyone. The worst thing lies in the fact if a Pakistani (spelling, I thinkuzzled MP had made the same joke, he wouldn't have been fired.

She isn't a racists, and should certainly not need to both looking over her "values".

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)

It was lighthearted, she obviously didn't intend it to offend anyone. The worst thing lies in the fact if a Pakistani (spelling, I thinkuzzled MP had made the same joke, he wouldn't have been fired.

She isn't a racists, and should certainly not need to both looking over her "values".

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The joke was ...

"An englishman, a cuban and a japanese man were in a train carriage.

The cuban throws a cigar out of the window. 'Why?'asks the Englishman. 'Cigars are ten a penny in my country.'

The japanese man throws a mobile phone out of the window. Same question, same answer.

So the Englishman throws a Paki out of the window."

Can you please explain to me how that is lighthearted and unlikely to offend anyone?

The worst thing is not in the slightest that 'if a Pakistani MP had made the same joke, he wouldn't have been fired.' Firstly, they wouldn't be that stupid but in any case to quote Tannhauser quoting Chris Rock ... It's ok for me to say it, it isn't ok for you.

Aside from the fact that immigration is one of the single most sensitive political issues today, for a politician to make a joke that suggests a racial group is as worthless as a cigar or mobile phone is simply unacceptable.

Whether she *is* racist or not is hard to prove ... what is not hard to prove is that she acted in that manner. If that isn't bad enough to justify her sacking, then her complete lack of judgement certainly is.

Iain Duncan Smith did well to distance himself and his party from her and her joke as rapidly as he did.

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)

It was lighthearted, she obviously didn't intend it to offend anyone. The worst thing lies in the fact if a Pakistani (spelling, I thinkuzzled MP had made the same joke, he wouldn't have been fired.

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I'm going to say this, and see if the lightbulb above Kieran's head springs into fitful life. As I have already had occasion to quote once today, Chris Rock said "WE can say it. YOU can't".

Although it would be unlikely that a Pakistani MP would make that joke, or if he did would make it to the same end. A bloomin' *rugby club dinner* was taken aback by it. Have you ever been to a rugby club dinner? They're pretty hard to shock.

So, tell you what, Kieran. Why don't you go up to a group of Pakistani friends of yours and say to them "Hey, guys, I could kill one of you, because - hey! - your kind is ten-a-penny in this country and it doesn't matter if one of you dies or not! But don't worry, I'm not a racist, and I'm being lighthearted! So that's OK! Hey, fancy doing one of your funny dances to entertain me, or is that black people?". See how they react. Or am I to assume that your unique qualification to comment on what is and is not offensive to British Pakistanis is uncontaminated by actually speaking to any?

She isn't a racists, and should certainly not need to both looking over her "values".

I don't know, they come over here, they refuse to speak English....

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by Incandenza
Can you please explain to me how that is lighthearted and unlikely to offend anyone?

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A joke, told in a social setting, to entertain, to amuse friends is BY DEFINITION a light-hearted joke. Her aim wasn't to stun or shock, but amuse. That has to be light-hearted.

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by Incandenza
If that isn't bad enough to justify her sacking, then her complete lack of judgement certainly is

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That I can agree on.

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by Tannhauser
A bloomin' *rugby club dinner* was taken aback by it.

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And you were there because.....? Oh wait, you weren't. I haven't read one article where it quotes a member at the dinner was offended, not one. The papers were, politicans were... no rugby members were mentioned.

"We can say it, you can't!" Chris Rock

What a beautifully absurd idea! No, if it's wrong for one, it's wrong for all... regardless of how others view it. Also, that comment in itself is racists and discriminating against any white person. But wait, he can't be racist, he's black!

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by Tannhauser
So, tell you what, Kieran. Why don't you go up to a group of Pakistani friends of yours and say to them "Hey, guys, I could kill one of you, because - hey! - your kind is ten-a-penny in this country and it doesn't matter if one of you dies or not! But don't worry, I'm not a racist, and I'm being lighthearted! So that's OK! Hey, fancy doing one of your funny dances to entertain me, or is that black people?". See how they react.

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Going by your logic, why don't you march into the middle of the East Germany, into a skin-head club and tell them what (insert swear word) they are. Oh wait, that's a totally poinless comment. Try posting something sensible next time.

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by Tannhauser
Or am I to assume that your unique qualification to comment on what is and is not offensive to British Pakistanis is uncontaminated by actually speaking to any?

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Interesting.

I know two Pakustani people in my year, one I can't stand, the other I like... why? Because he's a (swear word). It's not about skin colour, culture or any other factor along those lines, he's just a (swear word). He's ruse, himself a racists, commenting often how Bin Laden was right to do what he did, how he wants to join the Taliban. So if someone knifed him to death, the police would say "well, it's clearly a rascist murder!"

NO IT'S NOT. He was just a (swear word). If he'd been white with the same views, everyone would still hate him.



It seems everyone has TOTALLY got off the point (including myself). I merely feel she was sacked over a non-intentionally offencive joke... a joke for crying out loud. What's next, eating a candy bar in an offencive manner will get you fired?

So, the lightbulb over Kieran's head remains at best a firefly on a foggy night...

Chris Rock can address other black people with terms commonly used as terms of abuse directed at black people, because the power dynamic is not there. He is clearly not asserting his superiority over black people through racist abuse, because he would be abusing a group to which he belongs. It becomes a way to subvert racist language. Likewise, gay friends of mine will afectionately call each other "poofs" but would be less than happy if it was shouted at them by a gang of straights.

It is unlikely that Anne Winterton would be subject to racist abuse. Ergo, she cannot expect to be able to use racially abusive language without appearing to be...using racially abusive language. Any flickers in that tungsten filament yet, Kieran?

Now:

A joke, told in a social setting, to entertain, to amuse friends is BY DEFINITION a light-hearted joke. Her aim wasn't to stun or shock, but amuse. That has to be light-hearted.

This was a rugby club dinner, so I assume that, say, Leeds United's end-of-season dinner also counts as a social setting. Stan Boardman, who had been invited to address the gathering as Winterton was invited to address the rugby club dinner, was aiming to amuse - he is, after all, by trade a comedian. So, when he said "I'm being heckled by a Paki. Go back to your curry house or shop in Bradford. Your elephant is waiting outside", he was presumably being light-hearted, and thus this cannot be seen as offensive.

Social setting, intending to amuse...light-hearted. Not offensive.

Presumably you agree?

Oh, and please answer the question. Have you spoken to the one British Asian you like about how this might make them feel? And how on Earth can you only have two Pakistanis in your class? They are insanely populous, you know...it seems surreal that your entire social circle should not be made up entirely of second-generation Asians....



(Edited by Tannhauser 09/05/2002 15:13)

"It's okay for me to say it, it isn't for you!" Chris Rock

So therefore meaning that blondes are the only people who can tell blonde jokes? etc etc hmmmm must remember that one.

But for the record in her postion she should have thought before speaking.

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by Sweet-Sange
"It's okay for me to say it, it isn't for you!" Chris Rock

So therefore meaning that blondes are the only people who can tell blonde jokes? etc etc hmmmm must remember that one.

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With the utmost respect, people tend not to be beaten up because they are blonde, quietly turned away from jobs because they are blonde, refused credit because they live in a primarily blonde area, or told that they do not belong in the country of their birth because they are blonde. Stakes are a bit lower....

Going by your logic, why don't you march into the middle of the East Germany, into a skin-head club and tell them what (insert swear word) they are. Oh wait, that's a totally poinless comment.

You're right. It was a totally pointless comment. I'm surprised you didn't delete it. I know that if I did that I would receive a kicking. You seem to be claiming that as long as you were light-hearted enough with your racial banter, there would be no reason for you to get a kicking, and if you did get a kicking it would be a result of a) political correctness gone mad and b) some people just not being bale to take a joke.

Has a fuse gone in here?

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by Tannhauser
Likewise, gay friends of mine will afectionately call each other "poofs" but would be less than happy if it was shouted at them by a gang of straights.

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Well I pity your friends, maybe they're just a tad too over-sensitive. One of my very good friends doesn't take offence when "straights" (lovely phrase by the way, hmmm... doesn't make it sound like we need two schools, two buses and two water-fountains for "poofs" and "straights" make gay jokes, in fact he laughs at the jokes, you know why, because they're funny. They were meant to be funny, they were funny... hence the laughter.

The Bristish culture is one that ridicules one another, black, asians, gays, women, embarrissing moments, pulling a dog looking girl... it's all in light-hearted fun. My friends make gay jokes, does that make them homo-phobes? By your opinion I guess it would, but their not, they just like to joke about.

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by Tannhauser
It is unlikely that Anne Winterton would be subject to racist abuse.

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Maybe not racists jokes, but maybe feminist or female gender jokes.

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by Tannhauser
Oh, and please answer the question. Have you spoken to the one British Asian you like about how this might make them feel? And how on Earth can you only have two Pakistanis in your class? They are insanely populous, you know...it seems surreal that your entire social circle should not be made up entirely of second-generation Asians....

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Hmmm.... no, never. I've never even seen an Asain, do they even exist? Personally I think they're all fictional, like unicorns or the boogie man. Made up by the Government as a mass conspiricy to hide alien landings at Roswell.

The papers were, politicans were... no rugby members were mentioned.

Hmmm...you'll forgive me if the fact that you could not recall her name makes me less than convinced of your skills as a media analyst. Oh yes, here we are...


Even Congleton's burly rugby players, who are unlikely to describe themselves as politically correct, were said to be taken aback by Mrs Winterton's joke.

From a national newspaper, May 6th.

So you haven't asked any British Asian how it makes them feel, and you are now flanneling in an attempt to conceal that. Excellent.

How's that lightbulb precariously balanced on the apex of your cranium? Stygian in its darkness? Also excellent.

(Edited by Tannhauser 09/05/2002 15:35)

And, while we're here, from the Times (quite a well-known newspaper, Kieran, with a reasonable reputation):It takes a degree of skill to offend guests at a rugby club dinner. It is a shame that the talents of Ann Winterton, Tory spokeswoman on rural affairs, could not be put to more constructive use. Mrs Winterton, MP for Congleton in Cheshire, chose to regale guests at her local rugby club dinner with a racist “joke” whose punchline saw an Englishman throwing a Pakistani out of a train window with the comment, “they are ten a penny in my country”. [/b]Some guests protested to the MP, who has apologised.


Mrs Winterton’s comments were inappropriate and offensive. That offence was reinforced by the “defence” proffered by the MP’s friends, that the joke should be seen in the context of a rugby club dinner, implying as it did that it is OK to make racist remarks so long as it is in private and among friends. While initially prepared to defend Mrs Winterton, Conservative Central Office yesterday changed its mind and sacked her.

Iain Duncan Smith has done the right thing. Ordinarily, nobody should face dismissal for telling a joke in bad taste, no matter how unfunny. But Mrs Winterton’s comments indicated a fundamental racism and genuine lack of comprehension about modern Britain. Her remarks were not made off the cuff or in a moment of drunken lack of judgment but were prepared in advance as the final flourish of a speech. She holds a position of public authority on the Conservative front bench. For all of these reasons the Tory leader was right to dismiss her.

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by Tannhauser
So you haven't asked any British Asian how it makes them feel

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Considering I only read your post where you asked me to ask a British Asian about half-an hour ago, I can safetly say, no I haven't ask anyone yet.

And yes, I have a good friend who is Asian, no I haven't asked her yet.

Please stick to the original point of the post, I'm not going to spend post after post exchanging badly hidden insults.

Ann Winterton's "joke" (for want of a better word), was not an attempt, in any way to offend anyone. I feel sorry we live in an age, where a woman's political life as a Tory MP is ruined by the need for political correctness and an inability (spelling, sorry:upset to see things as they really are.

Read. The. Quotes. Above. Heck, read an entire newspaper. They're broadening.

Incidentally:

Considering I only read your post where you asked me to ask a British Asian about half-an hour ago, I can safetly say, no I haven't ask anyone yet.

And it just hadn't occured to you that maybe that might be an enlightening or interesting conversation before? Woo-hoo. You're probably right. Might have been at odds with "how things really are". Yep.

(Edited by Tannhauser 09/05/2002 15:52)

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by Tannhauser
(quotes)

With the utmost respect, people tend not to be beaten up because they are blonde, quietly turned away from jobs because they are blonde, refused credit because they live in a primarily blonde area, or told that they do not belong in the country of their birth because they are blonde. Stakes are a bit lower....

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Agreed in This country maybe not, but it does happen in other countrys depending on skin colour/sex etc. There is prejudice everywhere. In certain parts of Africa baby girls that are born are left to die in the wild purely becasue of their sex. Although i'm going totaly off topic now sorry.

Kieran in answer to your original question , I'm sure that a lot of people tell jokes that could be classed as offensive to someone , I just think people in certain postions should be more careful about the things they say.