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by KieranFrost

A joke, told in a social setting, to entertain, to amuse friends is BY DEFINITION a light-hearted joke. Her aim wasn't to stun or shock, but amuse. That has to be light-hearted.

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It wasn't a social setting with friends, she was after-dinner speaker at a Rugby Club, paid to do it because as a member of parliament she has profile.

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What a beautifully absurd idea! No, if it's wrong for one, it's wrong for all... regardless of how others view it. Also, that comment in itself is racists and discriminating against any white person. But wait, he can't be racist, he's black!

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If it's wrong for one, it's wrong for all simply doesn't stand up as an approach to morality. It is wrong for me to shoot you, it is not wrong for a soldier to shoot someone whilst defending his country.

Without rehashing the 'Politics of humour' thread ... superiority humour functions to make the teller and the audience feel better about themselves at someone else's expense. In this manner it promotes bigotry, hatred and prejudice. However, if the teller is also the target (Chris Rock, Woody Allen etc) the ideology of the joke is altered.

Saying to a white person it is wrong to tell racist jokes about black people is not racist in the slightest, because the same morality functions in reverse. There is no prejudice there.

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It seems everyone has TOTALLY got off the point (including myself). I merely feel she was sacked over a non-intentionally offencive joke... a joke for crying out loud. What's next, eating a candy bar in an offencive manner will get you fired?

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We haven't got off the point at all. We are just disagreeing with you.

The joke is inherently offensive. The punchline works on the following principle ... pakistani's are all over here because our immigration laws are lax, and there are so many of them that they are essentially worhtless and so it is all right to kill them by throwing them off a train.

How would you offend someone by eating a chocolate bar?

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by Incandenza
How would you offend someone by eating a chocolate bar?

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By eating their choclate bar

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by Incandenza
How would you offend someone by eating a chocolate bar?

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People chewing food with their mouths open is a pet hate of mine!...

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by Incandenza
It is wrong for me to shoot you, it is not wrong for a soldier to shoot someone whilst defending his country.

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Is it wrong for a soldier to shoot someone else whilst defending their countries foreign oil interests?

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)

By eating their choclate bar

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Excellent ... theft. Well now there is a concrete example ...

Yes, a politican should be sacked (and prosecuted) for theft.

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by MonSTer
Is it wrong for a soldier to shoot someone else whilst defending their countries foreign oil interests?

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That depends.

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by KieranFrost
And yes, I have a good friend who is Asian, no I haven't asked her yet.

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'Some of my best friends are Asians, just not the ones who get parts in tv shows based on tokenism rather than talent...'

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by Incandenza
'Some of my best friends are Asians, just not the ones who get parts in tv shows based on tokenism rather than talent...'

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But getting into Tv or Film is like, goidlike hard
But when you do: -

Ming-Na we love you. She did the voice of Mulan and is in ER and is getting her own lead role in a new comedy, which means she might leave ER

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by KieranFrost
It seems everyone has TOTALLY got off the point (including myself). I merely feel she was sacked over a non-intentionally offencive joke... a joke for crying out loud. What's next, eating a candy bar in an offencive manner will get you fired?

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How can it be "non-intentionally offencive" (sic) to infer that the lives of a whole race of people are worthless? What would she have had to say to be intentionally offensive? By that yardstick, we can say what we like about any group of people as long as it's covered by the proviso "but hey, I'm not being intentionally offensive"....

That argument doesn't even begin to stand up.

I think Kieran is at the point where he's putting together any sort of spurious argument so as not to have to admit defeat.

Kieran is entitled to present his opinions any way he sees fit. Let's not get personal in this thread, please. Thanks - W

(Edited by Whistler 10/05/2002 08:43)

Can I please remind people NOT to make personal remarks about fellow members. I refer you to the site's Member's Guide and terms and Conditions. Thank you - W

(Edited by Whistler 10/05/2002 08:39)

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by Vix
How can it be "non-intentionally offencive" (sic) to infer that the lives of a whole race of people are worthless?

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Of course it offended, but that was never the intent, we've all made remakes that hurt others, without intending to

RE: Jane Austen's Emma. Emma rudly snubs Miss Bates at Box Hill, without even realising it would offend, though it did.

You can't deny she in no way intended to offend anyone, she did, but that was not the intent, and we should emphasis this, instead of the fact the joke was racists. It's obviously not her view that Asains are worthless, it's just a punch line, like blonde jokes, gay jokes, feminist jokes.

Teachers and doctors suffer from the same kind of rules, can't touch a student, even if they charge at you with a knife, you can be sued (terrible spelling:upset for failing to save a patient, no matter how hard you try. The world really needs to sort itself out.

DJ Billy and Selig, hmmm... I wonder what you wrote

Hmm, if I can see the dividing line here its the, "Ok, it wasn't too clever, but it wasnt intended to offend" argument and the "Its just plain wrong" point of view.

Personally I think the "It wasn't intended to offend" argument only holds up if she really was in the company of her white friends, say at her own home.

I've laughed at jokes about Blondes, Women Drivers, Overweight people, Asians, Epileptics, and every other politically uncorrect thing. (And so have most of us if we're honest). It may not be right, but in the privacy of your own home I believe people are free to express any opinions they like, regardless of the sensitivity of them.

The politician in question didn't do that, she told a rather offensive, and even immature schoolboy sort of joke (seriously I haven't heard that particular joke since I was at school), at quite a public event.

I work as a computer consultant, which means I meet a lot of different customers, and have to put my 'customer facing' mask on, even when supposedly relaxing at a dinner. Even if I was a staunch racist, I wouldn't dream of telling a bunch of my clients that sort of joke in such a setting.

That she didn't realise that is a huge mistake to make, and one that she has rightly paid dearly for.

I liked it when Emma queerbashed Mr. Knightly.

What? It was a joke!

(Edited by Tannhauser 10/05/2002 23:24)

Ok, apologies for my juvenile attack on Kieran, long day.

Three questions for kieran:

1) Do you agree that racially orientated slang/abbreviations are offensive terms, never mind the context?

2) Do you agree that describing a whole ethnic group as worthless, ie:"Ten a penny" is offensive?

3) Would you agree that suggesting killing an ethnic group,ie: "throw them off a train", even in the context of a "joke" is offensive?

If not I would be interested to hear why!



(Edited by Selig 11/05/2002 00:07)

(Edited by Selig 11/05/2002 00:10)

(Edited by Desire 11/05/2002 14:12)

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by KieranFrost
Of course it offended, but that was never the intent, we've all made remakes that hurt others, without intending to

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If Enoch Powell had not intended to hurt anyone by his 'Rivers of Blood' speech, would that make it OK? Or if Hitler had meant no offence by Mein Kampf? I'll admit that this racist joke is not anyway near on the scale of these two, but the point stands. Whether you intend to offend isn't the point - ignorance maybe be bliss, but it's no defence.

As others have said, the joke was clearly racist - it is based on the premise that the amount of Asians in this country is so high that they are of no value. It is based on the racist opinion that the UK has been swamped by Asian immigrants. To tell this joke you need to be a racist. And racism should have no place in mainstream politics.

So, I won't surprise you by saying that I am happy she was removed from the shadow cabinet. I would go further and suggest that if she is not de-selected, or at least defeated, in her seat by the time of the next election, then it reflects badly on the people of her constituency, and on her local party.

As for 'I can say it, you can't' - when someone who is black uses a racially abusive term about their own ethnic group, it is completely different from when someone who is white uses it. Kieran, I don't know you, so I don't know if you know what it is like to have a word divide you from the rest of society. I do. I know how powerful words can be from being on the receiving end. It's not a laughing matter. When someone who is straight (and not a close personal friend) uses homophobic language I am not only offended, but deeply and personally hurt. It is a reminder that my sexuality (for the record - bisexual - so as not to confuse some people...) keeps me apart from a large part of society. It makes me alien, sinful, vulgar, disgusting - shall I go on? When the same terms are banded around amongst homosexuals and bisexuals there is a very definite aim - to desensitize. The hope is that if you over use the word, with heavy doses of irony, that it will reduce the impact it can have when someone else uses it. That's why I can use certain words and you shouldn't - unless I'm presuming too much.

This isn’t people who have and are being abused for their perceived difference just being mean to all you white heterosexuals. There’s good reason for this perceived double standard. I can accept that if you’ve never been ostracized from mainstream society because of your skin colour or sexuality that you can’t understand. I would however ask that you accept it.

(Edited by Desire 11/05/2002 14:46)

(Edited by Jayjay 15/05/2002 07:36)

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by KieranFrost
DJ Billy and Selig, hmmm... I wonder what you wrote

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Mine's still there and I stand by my point.

I was purely making a comment about my reading of the direction of Kieran's argument (his chocolate bar reference, for example). No personal comment was intended

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by Tannahuser
I liked it when Emma queerbashed Mr. Knightly.

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Personally I like Mrs Elton, but everyone else I know hates her, oh well

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by Selig
1) Do you agree that racially orientated slang/abbreviations are offensive terms, never mind the context?

2) Do you agree that describing a whole ethnic group as worthless, ie:"Ten a penny" is offensive?

3) Would you agree that suggesting killing an ethnic group,ie: "throw them off a train", even in the context of a "joke" is offensive?

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Racially orientated slang/abbreviations if used by a Pakistani or a friend of a Pakistani in their presence is exceptable, if no harm is meant.

Describing a race a worthless AND MEANING IT is terrible, in the context of a joke, no. Also, throwing someone off a train won't necessarily kill them

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by Jayjay
To tell this joke you need to be a racist.

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Not really, but your points are good, but by sheer conincident I'm bisexual, and my friends come up with exceptionally funny jokes about it and I really can't stop myself laughing. When others do it, I laugh, the jokes are still funny, even if they are 'straight'. When someone, who dislikes me, uses it as on offence, I dislike the intent, but I couldn't give two hoots about the words.

<Insert a 'tasteless' racial joke here>

Yeah, it's tastless, but so what. You must understand when people use this joke, they're not saying Pakistani people are worthless or all deserve to die, it's just a joke, yes I can see how some would take offence, but today I asked Krystal, my friend who is Pakistani, if I said that joke would she take offence.

She said no, because it isn't aimed at Pakistani people, she's heard the joke with a blonde, replacing the Pakistani, does that mean the teller hates blondes? No, it's all in the context of a joke.

(Edited by Desire 11/05/2002 14:20)

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by KieranFrost
Racially orientated slang/abbreviations if used by a Pakistani or a friend of a Pakistani in their presence is exceptable, if no harm is meant.

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So why have you just posted a joke that contains racially orientated slang/abbreviations (since removed) on a public forum where it could be easily read by someone who could be very offended by it?

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to make personal comments about other members, so can I just make a general observation that some of the views that have been expressed in this thread are ill-thought out, illogical and reprehensible. You can take that how you want.

(Edited by Desire 11/05/2002 14:24)

Interesting certainly that it appears that, while personal comments are verboten, racism is not. And, for the record, the joke Kieran just made is not only not very good, it is also profoundly racist, and, although I have no desire whatsoever to cast any personal aspersions on any poster here, I certainly feel that, in general, somebody so utterly untouched by self-awareness as to believe that it would support their argument that it is all a bit of fun should probably not be trusted with pointed objects. You know, like his or her own fingers.

I *personally* feel that there is a big difference between making a personal attack on someone and expressing a viewpoint (albeit one that would be conisdered by the majority as less than politically correct).

From a site point of view, we are trying to maintain a board that is as unoffensive as possible. While discussions such as these are allowed to continue, I must ask you to ensure that they do so without the use of negative racial slang.

Regarding this thread, I will be following it with interest!

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by KieranFrost


Yeah, it's tastless, but so what. You must understand when people use
this joke, they're not saying Pakistani people are worthless or all
deserve to die, it's just a joke, yes I can see how some would take
offence, but today I asked Krystal, my friend who is Pakistani, if I
said that joke would she take offence.


She said no, because it isn't aimed at Pakistani people, she's heard the
joke with a blonde, replacing the Pakistani, does that mean the teller
hates blondes? No, it's all in the context of a joke.

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It's still a problem though. There are a whole range of 'jokes' where the 'punchline' could be any one of 'Pakistani', 'blonde', 'Irishman', 'Scouser' or whatever. These jokes have been told for so long that it's almost as if the people telling them have become desensitised. They see Pakistanis as a group of people who it's funny to poke fun at, but a lot of them probably don't know why. Does this make it acceptable? Not in my opinion.


A friend of mine blames most of the ills of this country on immigrants. He has no idea about politics and he has no idea why he blames them - he just does. It's actually because of the way he's been brought up. His father is the same and it's just what he's been used to. He was given a
preconceived view before he was old enough to know better and it's hard for him to change.


Many racist jokes are told in schools and many children there may not actually know anyone from the Pakistani community. As a result, when people go out into the wide world, some of them may have a preconceived, and wrong view. While the people telling these jokes claim there is no harm meant, I don't believe it can ever be the case.


Parliament is one place where people should know much, much better. Race relations are a huge issue and everyone involved, whatever their department should always think about what they say, whatever their beliefs and whatever the subject. So even if the politician in question did not have malicious intent behind her telling of the joke, it doesn't make it right, or acceptable and I believe the right action was taken against her.


(Edited by DJ Billy 12/05/2002 23:46)

Here's a joke that made me giggle:

Ian Duncan Smith throws out a member of the shadow cabinet for telling a racist joke. When someone asks him, 'Why did you do that?' he replies 'Racists are ten a penny in my party'.

(Courtesy of Radio 4's 'Dead Ringers' show)