I think there are a number of reasons behind what's going on.

Firstly, the reason a lot of us met is because of watching Buffy. Nowadays, I know a number of people don't watch it any more and consequently the discussion threads slow down. This means that the social side of the board is dominant, which is harder for new people (or even regulars who don't get the chance to go to many meets) to get into because discussion is about things and events they haven't been party to.

Secondly, I think part of the quietness in chat is just down to the fact that people know each other so well these days. In the old days (before the SHP), not a lot of people knew each other, so Main Chat rather than private messaging was the way people went about chatting. Once people got to know each other well I suppose private messaging became a lot more prevelant (I remember being in chat a number of times where there'd be 20-25 people in there and noone would be saying a word!). Nowadays, people get pinged on MSN as soon as they come online and don't even get the chance to go into chat. As a result, I suppose other people don't bother going in any more

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by DJ Billy
the social side of the board is dominant, which is harder for new people (or even regulars who don't get the chance to go to many meets) to get into because discussion is about things and events they haven't been party to.

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I think this is very true. I find that there are times when it's quite hard to feel like a "real" member of the boards when I don't have the time and money (or, if I'm honest, the inclination) to go to lots of meets. I've been to a couple, I met a few people, I had fun, but there's a whole host of reasons why I don't do wild partying every weekend any more. However, because a lot of people here do, they get to know each other much better, and it can feel a bit cliquey sometimes, and if you're inclined to be shy then the easiest response is to back away. I lurked on BuffyUK for about two years because I was too shy to post when everyone seemed to know each other. I still only dare to venture into chat after a couple of drinks

I'm not sure what could be done about this though. I know none of it is done nastily or even consciously, but nevertheless I feel it sometimes, and judging from posts like Lizzie's above I'm not the only one.

As DJ Billy says, I think some of this may be to do with lack of topics for discussion. I get the impression most people watch Buffy on Sky, where there's nothing new to discuss until the New Year, and people's other TV interests are so varied that it can be hard to find enough people to discuss a show, and when so many people know each other well there's no need for the sort of 'getting to know you' questions we used to see posted in General Chat. Themed chat nights would certainly encourage me into the chatroom more, because I'd know I knew something about the topic.

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by DJ Billy
Secondly, I think part of the quietness in chat is just down to the fact that people know each other so well these days. In the old days (before the SHP), not a lot of people knew each other, so Main Chat rather than private messaging was the way people went about chatting. Once people got to know each other well I suppose private messaging became a lot more prevelant (I remember being in chat a number of times where there'd be 20-25 people in there and noone would be saying a word!). Nowadays, people get pinged on MSN as soon as they come online and don't even get the chance to go into chat. As a result, I suppose other people don't bother going in any more

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I think you've hit the nail on head. It is a shame.

I pop in as and when I can. Once upon a time, I used to find that there were a fair number of peeps chatting through the day. So if I was in the office, I would have some good chats late afternoon (Red, where have you gone?!?!?).

I still try to get in a few times a week in the evening though.

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by gobstopper
Once upon a time, I used to find that there were a fair number of peeps chatting through the day. So if I was in the office, I would have some good chats late afternoon (Red, where have you gone?!?!?).

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Still about Not as often through the day due to a change in job description. I can post and surf occassionally from work, but not use chat. I shall endeavour to get in there soon and we can catch up

Have to say that being a newbie sucks but thats because the people who are friends have in-jokes and such that just don't come across to others :S
But anyways, I just want to say that I wouldn't have made the friends I have if it wasn't for the chat room and those people always being friendly so erm... thats it really! I'd love to see more people in more often and maybe a guided chat thing though... unfortunately out of ideas on that though :S
Emmy xx

The limited common interests, attendance of meets and the prevalence of instant messaging are clearly critical factors, but the relatively small membership must also be remembered -- T21 is quite active given that it's only got ~350 registered members.

These numbers are crude, skewed by some user ids not being valid, and I'm sure the site staff have much better (and more usefull) figures, but as a rough indicator they're interesting:

85 different users have posted to the 32 most recently active topics on "general chat" -- a quarter of registered users have posted to a "current" (in some sense) topic! Many sites would kill for that!

96 accounts last logged in this month -- ie in the last 3 days! A further 78 last logged in in October.

26 accounts appear to be invalid, or otherwise have never been logged into. A further 60 haven't logged in since May or earlier.

83 users have 0 posts, 86 have 1 to 9 posts, 84 have 10 to 99 posts, 75 have 100 to 999, and 11 have 1000 or more.

21 of those with 1-9 posts have user ids of 300+ so are probably live users.

So at a rough guess I'd say about a third of the accounts here are dead, and a similar number are currently active; the proportion of lurkers appears to be relatively low compared to many internet fora; and whilst the site may be less active than it once was it's still doing okay for itself.

The low posting volume makes it easier for newbies to join, as they won't be overwhelmed by having to keep on top of hundreds of posts every day, though as mentioned by others the low traffic is part of a viscious circle which results in those who want to chat more using IM or busier boards.

The community's small enough that newbies can find it very cliquey, it's hard to be somewhere where everybody knows everybody -- except for you. Meets are probably the kicker here, the core of the site will often be percieved as those who regularly attend meets IRL. In jokes, slang, and annecdotes all help to build and strengthen a group, but can also present a hurdle for newcomers to clear.

Certainly themed chats can only help to improve involvement, especially once people are comfotable enough with the idea to propose chats themselves.

A few people will join T21 when Fluffy7 starts, and at some point active membership will hopefully hit a critical mass to start attracting people.

As for IRC, dunno -- I'm even less chatty on there than I am here!

Phew... that was longer than I planned. Brain hurts, need beer...

LOL
Some people have *way* too much free time

I'd allmost think you hacked the database

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by Stoo
LOL
Some people have *way* too much free time

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I'm at work, the alternative to doing that is writing real perl

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by The Noid
I'd allmost think you hacked the database

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mysql, I presume? And for my next trick...

Your webserver logs have probably got a couple of hundred hits from my bot, but hopefully it wasn't a noticeable impact.

Didn't notice a thing *grin*, yeah, we've got a few holes in the id numbers, but that was from us messing about pre-launch really

I agree with Callum's points on new members joining; I haven't been on T21 long, but I found settling in wasn't a nightmare due to all the nice friendly happy people!

As someone who used to post fairly regularly on both the 'Yukker' and 'Road To...' sites, I've been trying to figure out why I've such a pitiful post count here.

I think it's a sense of belonging or not. It's hard to explain but, when I joined Buffyuk it already had over 2000 members and was very lively. It was my first internet posting board, non of my 'real' friends watched Buffy, and it was very exciting for me. I just launched into it, mainly talking about Buffy first. My confidence to post came from the fact that there were so many other people posting so it didn't matter that I was new and unknown.

By the time the site folded I was feeling home there, a name that people recognised even, so when I finally found the interim RTT21 site and recognised so many names I felt right at home again.

This site was much smaller of course, and after a while I noticed two distinct groups forming. People who knew each other through meets and the like, and the other people. And it was the first group who were involved in this great new T21 site they were putting together.

At this point I'd like to say I'm really don't want to come across as being critical. This is probably more an insight into my own psychology and neuroses than anything else.

The bottom line is though that I don't really feel I belong here anymore. I'd like to though, and do try to post occasionally, but I'm far more likely to scan though the latest posts every now and again and end up thinking I've nothing really to add.

Sorry to bang on, but anyway, I'd like to end this on a positive note, I mean look, I'm posting right now! and it's only two months until Buffy starts up again! Woo Hoo...

Well, I have actually only been on T21 for a few months (4 or something now) and I kind of felt I fitted in straight away.
That might have been because I have spent so long in various aspects of Fandom etc, and was doing things like Pages long before meeting people on T21 going to the same places that I was.

Once I finally get my proper phone line then i will be able to go on T21 more, or at least use it at a more normal speed as it will not be so much hassel as plugging a mobile into my P.C. then waiting a couple of minutes whilst everything connects


I hope we get more newbies, I also know that their are some people who are on loads that I have barely met either in person or online.

Do people (site admins especially) think that T21 is growing at an appropriate rate?

The number of new members a month for the last six months has been quite steady (15-24 each month), but the bulk of people date back to March/April (and these were mostly yukkers/RTT21).

The start of Buffy6 on BBC will get a few more people joining almost certainly, as will B7 on Sky in a couple of months -- the joining rate could easily hit 25-30+ a month very soon; coupled with the start of the lent term (historically a strong time for online activity -- post xmas, and uni freshers starting their second term), we could start seeing a lot of new faces here.

I agree that T21 does have its cliques, and that may have put off new users. I remember before I'd been to any meets not really feeling 'part of the group', even though I was one of the early members of BuffyUK.

And yeah, a new Buffy series should help gain some interest. One problem though, is this isn't a pure Buffy site anymore, so maybe has become more dilute in its message than say BuffyUK was.

My suggestions: {drum roll please}

If you're an existing member who hasn't been to a meet - try and make one. You'll have a great time, and its a great way to get to know people on a personal level. (Heh, why not come to our Xmas party...hehe) <-- ADVERTISEMENT

BuffyUK had a lot of members - so how come they didnt all migrate? Is there Any way we could get a message out to people who might have been ex-BuffyUK people and tell them to get on board.

On the same lines - publicity. Does T21 currently advertise on any other sites? How much would it cost? How could we generate publicity for the site? For example, if I recall correctly, BuffyUK was once linked to on the BBC buffy site. Anyone wanna bug someone at the BBC or Sky??

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by Funky Monkey
Anyone wanna bug someone at the BBC or Sky??

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You get the bugs ill tap their phones

I certainly agree that T21s target audience shouldn't necessarily be buffy-centric, but rather that it's current audience is, and that the easiest group to attract will be buffy|angel fans.

Publicitywise, there do seem to be very few references to T21 elsewhere on the net -- I'm not sure whether or not this is a conscious decission by the staff. A google for tangent21 returns only 21 websites once you exclude tangent21 itself and fsmbitches. Similarly only three usenet posts are returned -- and the most recent of these is Dec 2001.

At present the site is growing steadily by word of mouth, if nothing else at least this means that a higher proportion of those who join will be active; but given the ammount of work a small number of people have put into getting the site going it does seem a pity that T21 hasn't achieved world domination yet.

True, it doesn't have to be Buffy-Centric, but that leaves us with a problem. From a 'marketing' point of view (I use the term loosely, since it not like T21 is some corporation), you need to have a core identity. BuffyUK had one, even if a lot of the chat was general and not buffy related. Another example is 'The DVD Forums' - they have a massive userbase, yet 90% of the chat doesnt seem to be DVD related.

So what is T21's identity? It seems to have gone for the Sci-Fi/Cult route as a general standpoint, if so then maybe thats what it should be advertising itself as?

Really I see the actual thing the site is supposed to be as an ice breaker - it doesnt mean everyone has to talk about just that subject, its just the catalyst to get everyone interested in the first place.

On a personal note...

I've not been around much lately due to a mixture of a huge increase in workload and events in personal life. Most of my posts used to be done while I was at work (like now), but the opportunity for that has massively decreased just as my workload has increased. At the same time, I seem to be travelling or playing host during most of my time off, which has lead to few opportunities to log on at home.

On a more general note...

Scanning this thread there seems to be two themes. Lots of other people like me just haven't had the time recently, with many members having started Uni or college this year. The other is talk about Buffy identity, advertising, increase membership, etc.

Personally, I think there's a number of issues. Firstly, we'll never see the amount of traffic there was when the site started ever again. It was a new toy then, and people wanted to play. No one can keep that level of interest and excitement up. Unless then is a sudden influx of about 200 new members you just won't repeat those levels again.

Secondly, in my experience, these things ebb and flow. We've had a very high paced turn over of posts and the novelties worn off and people need a bit of a break from here. Give it a while and you'll see levels increase a bit again. The membership is big enough and the number of active members should see to that.

As for advertising and identity, I'm not sure this is an issue. Seems to me there's a steady flow of new people, and the size of the membership seems pretty good. Yes, the old Buffy identity gave some focus and identity, but it can also be limiting. And while we may think of T21 as a cult/sci-fi/buffy site, truth has always been that general chat (and therefore general topics) has always been the most active part of the site. We may have come here because we like certain TV programs, movies and books, but what we really want is mindless babble from spike, to chat about big brother, and a good ol' political scrap.

Personally, I wouldn't worry. Yeah, new ideas like the themed chats are cool. And ideas to help keep people logged in chat when there's only a couple in, so that when others come along they stay and the numbers build. Maybe (I don't know if it's possible) if the bots can monitor the traffic level, and they see no one is posting, they could throw out random trivia questions? Something other than people watching the tumbleweed go by, y'know?

I reckon the more general feel is one of the best things about this site, as it brings people together who wouldn't necessarily meet otherwise. Makes things interesting, and stops it getting too one-dimensional. Sure, some people will fall out, cliques will form, and others will get annoyed by petty inter-clique fighting. Unfortunately, this seems to be an inevitable aspect of human social behaviour. It happens at school, it happens at work, and so it seems to happen on line.

So don't worry! Take a load off, fella! Normal service will resume. However, the onus is on us, the members, to keep thinking of interesting, wacky and down right annoying subjects to discuss, and to not rely on MSN and ICQ but to use Chat as well.

But that's just my tuppany-bit.

(Edited by Jayjay 10/11/2002 04:06)

Sorry to keep harping on about this one, but it almost sounds from some of the comments that people dont really want the site to get all that many new members... A few comments seem to say, "its slowly growing so that's cool". There may be nothing wrong with that, which is why i'd like to know peoples opinion:

Should T21 attempt to recruit new members or should it let members accrue slowly via a word of mouth process?

What I'm asking then is are people afraid of the site growing at too quick a rate? More to point, are we afraid of new members? I dont think we should be. I'd love to see more members. New members bring with them fresh topics for discussion, and it'd just be nice to see fresh faces posting really - i'm sick of all you lot {jus kiddin folks}

As I stated before, I'd love to see T21 get coverage on something like BBC or Sky websites, or any other website which would attract likely targets. Are any of the staff available for comment on whether this could be attempted?

As for the IRC bot thing Wobag mentioned, i'm supposed to be helping with this so its up to me to pull my finger out! No that things are settling down at work a bit more (new job), I should be able to devote time to this.