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by Jayjay
OK, two basic issues, so I'll take pay first.

A fully qualified Firefighter with 15 years of service earns £20694. Wages actually vary from £16941 to £42168, depending on age, experience, qualifications and rank. .

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At last, someone has got the figures ru=ight

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by KieranFrost

How dare they ransom the lives of civilians for more money, which they don't need to live. Yes it would add more creature comforts, but in no way is it a necessity.

)

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One, it's the government who is doing the ransoning here, not the Fire service.

Two, define necessity. My dad is a single parent. Even with my mothers life insurance, it sure ain't easy with two dependants. I'm sure we aren' the onl'y ones in that situation.

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by Whistler
And, as far as I know, the striking firefighters have not stopped the army from using their machines. But pointed out that it takes 17 weeks to learn how to properly, and safely, operate a fire engine.

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Whst' you are correct in thinkin that the Firefighters are not going to stop the army from using red fire engines.

The problem arises from what they are going to do with them.

Going from a GreenGoddess to a new twin-turbo charged Man fire engine is going to be a steep learning cureve purely from a driving experience.

Let alone using all the equipment.

No, I don't think I will keep quiet. And by the way, I merely added the 'petrol and fire' moments, as light relief, cos I new my ideas wouldn't be popular with touchy feely people.

1) it is wrong to endager others lives for selfish reasons (money)
2) the firemen are on strike, not the government. Yes, the Government didn't help the situation, but they were still willing to negotiate.
3) if the Government caves, both Police and NHS will be outraged
4) after September 11th, firemen were held up as gods, it's a shame the British firefighters have destroyed that image.

and finally
5) the firemen knew what they were getting into when they signed up for the job. They knew it would risk their lives, they knew the pay would never be as great as a doctor or lawyer. To turn around now and demand better is so wrong when they knew what to expect.

(My personal point of view - not that of Tangent21 which is neutral in this dispute).

I have to say that my personal view is one of support for the firefighters. Day in & day out they risk their lives to go on a 'shout' & face they don't know what... until they get there.

They are prepared to put their lives on the line to save us - if someone is collapsed in a burning, smoke filled building then they kit up, dash in (obviously overcoming to a massive extent their inbuilt trigger system of fear which helps us all survive dangerous situations), rescue people wherever humanly possible & sometimes pulling off the 'impossible' rescue.

I have nothing but respect for the courage they display on a daily basis to save our lives.

Some of you will know that my job entails a lot of driving on motorways like the Ring of Death/Largest car park in the UK (M25) as well other motorways all over the country. Yesterday, when I was driving home, there were the big light up signs that warn you of accidents & delays all lit up with a warning to the effect that we had better all drive very safely & more carefully than usual due to the firefighters strike.

I really hope they get a salary which reflects better the risks they all take & the amount that the community owes to them.

As to the deaths, well, every day you hear on the local news about such and such who was tragically killed in a fire incident or road traffic accident - the only reason that it is making the national news in because of the strike. People unfortunately die in fires every single day yet they aren't on the national news & also blaming the firefighters (who have been reported on the news as breaking their own picket line when they are aware of an incident that needs their expertise) seems overly harsh & sensationalistic on the part of the press & tv.

I proudly tooted my car horn as I went past my local firestation & they waved back in acknowledgement. I thought about taking them some food & hot drinks as it was cold yesterday - but the strike was over an hour or so after I did get home so no need, as they were allowed back into the station.

Next week, if the long strike goes ahead I will be showing my support for the brave men & women of the fire service. I really hope they get more money & I will be taking them along some kind of refreshments to show my support in their fight.

I'm a bit split on me really. My political thoughts tend to be picked from all over the spectrum so sometimes I can conflict.

With the firefighters, I would really like to support them. They do a fantastic job, and without them, many more people would die, and there would be many more millions of pounds worth of property damage every year.

However, I find myself disagreeing with Strike action fullstop, generally. Having a job is a privalege not a right, and if someone isn't happy with what they are being paid, there are plenty of other jobs out there. When someone takes a job, they know exactly what they are getting into, how much they are going to be paid, and how much they need to be paid to live comfortably. If they can't live on what that job pays, they should be sensible and not do that job.

The fact that these strikers are firefighters insensifies the situation because of the danger to the public, but I would apply what I have said to all strike action.

I certainly agree that firefighters (and doctors, nurses, teachers, ambulance crews) should all be paid more than they get, but i do not agree that strike action is the way to get it. Unions and workers should not be allowed to bully the country around.

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by Maffrew
Unions and workers should not be allowed to bully the country around.

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And neither should employers and governments be allowed to bully employees into accepting poor pay and conditions and making said employees feel guilty about striking when it's the last resort.

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by Whistler
making said employees feel guilty about striking

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The guilt is from the media, more than the Government. But so what. People's lives could be saved if they weren't striking. Damn right they should feel guilty, if they didn't, they'd be something wrong with them.

Can you actually prove that those people who died during the strike dies as a *direct* result of the industrial action. Yet again, Kioran, I feel you are posting just for the sake of causing a stir rather than adding to the argument.


(Edited by Whistler 16/11/2002 14:27)

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by Maffrew
If they can't live on what that job pays, they should be sensible and not do that job.

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The problem is, though, that in many areas of the South of England it's well nigh impossible for *anyone* to live comfortably on the sort of salaries the firefighters receive. This also applies to many other essential public services and is a well-documented problem. I have heard cases of firefighters at London stations who find it cheaper to commute from Sunderland than live where they work. And I'm concerned about the effect on society of a culture where the wealthy live in places where those who provide essential public services can't even afford to take a job.

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by Whistler
(quotes)

And neither should employers and governments be allowed to bully employees into accepting poor pay and conditions and making said employees feel guilty about striking when it's the last resort.

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But it isn't a last resort. The FBU has repeatedly just walked out of negotiations and didn't even bother going to meet with government officials after the review was published to examine the findings. Andy Gilchrist is a militant bully who walks out in a strop when he doesn't get his own way.

Like Maff, I disagree with all strike action taken when there are still avenues to be explored. I also disagree with striking when they have been timed to cause maximum disruption and danger to safety. I feel that the FBU is particulary irresponsible to be striking so close to bonfirenight and Divali (sp!) when most shops are still stocking and selling fireworks and over the christmas period when people are more likely to have candles burning in their houses.

And how long will this go on for... I doubt that the Government will ever give the 40% and Gilchrist has said that he will not back down... Arriva Trains Northern have been using strike action for two years and still haven't got what they want.

Being somebody who has been on strike, I tend to side with the union rather than the employers/government.

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by Whistler
Can you actually prove that those people who died during the strike dies as a *direct* result of the industrial action.

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In my defence, can you prove they didn't? Flawed arguement in all fairness. Secondly, I post what I think. I honestly couldn't care less what you think my reasons are. I disagree with the strike. This is not to "stir things up", it's my view.

FACTS:
1) there were less than a third trained firefighters working during the strike
2) they are choosing to strike, no-one is forcing them
3) the army were using out of date fire engines, which does not help matters.

I don't think they expended all possible options before striking. They didn't give the negotiations enough time and the Government was offering a 4% pay rise. It's not much, but it better than nothing. I say they should take it and shut up, or quite their jobs and find one where the pay is up to their standards.

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)
I say they should take it and shut up, or quite their jobs and find one where the pay is up to their standards.

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Then put your money where your mouth is and toddle on down to your local fire station and tell them that. I'm sure they'll apreciate your forthright opinions

I would just like to add my thoughts to the melting pot:

1 It is the fundamental right of all free people to be able to with hold labour. only a slave can not strike!

2 The strike itself is not just over pay although this is a fundamental reason for it.

a couple of years ago across the country fire fighters conducted a survey of their areas and certain towns require 100% more fire stations. this basically means that the fire service is understaffed and this makes the job even more hazardous for both the public and the fire fighters (who is endangering the lives of the general public now?).

3 just think how much would they have to pay you to run into a burning building when everyone else is running away? would you do it for a wage on which you can not even afford to buy your own house I think not.

4 Just think of the people out there who would make ideal fire fighters for the future but are dettered at the thought of taking a pay cut, when you can earn more driving a fork lift truck!!

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)



FACTS:
1) there were less than a third trained firefighters working during the strike
2) they are choosing to strike, no-one is forcing them
3) the army were using out of date fire engines, which does not help matters.

I

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2. The government have forced them to strike, since no alternatives are left.

3. The Fire Brigade has made it very clear that they will not stop the army from using red fire engines.

They are more than intiltled to use them if they can. They simply haven't been trained to do so.

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by Tycho
The government have forced them to strike

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NO!!!!! No, no, no, no, no! They aren't FORCED to strike. They could choose not to strike, they could negotiate some more, they could get on with their lives. They are not forced! Proven by the fact some firemen refused to strike. I repeat, not forced, choose to.

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)

NO!!!!! No, no, no, no, no! They aren't FORCED to strike. They could choose not to strike, they could negotiate some more, they could get on with their lives. They are not forced! Proven by the fact some firemen refused to strike. I repeat, not forced, choose to.

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If they stand by their decisions, then they have no option other than to refuse work.

How can you negoitiate whith someone who keeps saying no? That isn't a negotiation (I.E the government).


The Firemen who have chosen to keep working, weel fair play to them. I'm not a Fireman, so I'm not going to call them a scab, but I imagine most would.

um, i support the strike, kind of, but i wouldn't call those who didnt strike "scrubs" each to their own

Ok lets talk fact now not rubbish

Scab is the name for a strike breaker.

1 Scabs are not allowed to work in the fire brigade by their health and safety. Think about it can they realy work with out a full crew?

so all this business about 1/3 of fire fighters working is rubbish.

2 Hands up if you have ever heard the saying united we stand divided we fall!

and also hands up if you know what the word union means.

no fire fighter wants to go on strike!! they like their job otherwise they would not be doing it. but if they will not offer a better deal what can you do?

Fire fighters pay has been tied to upper percential of industrial wages sinces the last strike (in their pay formula). How ever with the de skilling of industry pay rates for that sector have dropped and as such the fire fighters pay has not increased with the times ( its a changing world).

this pay dispute has been in the offing for well over a year now and the last pay offer made by the government was a time wasting effort, which to the governments credit staved off the last strike just.