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by Byron
So, where's the links to anti-white legislation you claimed existed?

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The 'sorry don't have one' covered that.

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by Byron
If we hadn't discriminated arbitrarily for decades, none of this would be nessesary. You reap what you sow.

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Oh please! Reap what you sow! I don't feel one iota of guilt over how OUR ancestors behaved. So we had slaves, so what? So did most of the world. It's our history, for better or worse and I refuse to feel any guilt over it.

If this country is so 'liberal and one with it's fellow brother' as we preach, surely such steps aren't needed? Where I work no-one is treated different, skin colour, sexual orientation. I see no evidence that enough prejudice exists in this country, that warrents a law to aid others.

And 'pro-active action' is just a friendly term for positive DISCRIMINATION. You're becoming as talented as covering things in a cheerful coat of sugar as the BNP. Maybe you should join them and offer tips.

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by KieranFrost
The 'sorry don't have one' covered that.

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A lesson in netiquete: Fabricating contentious allegations designed to provoke a response without a shred of proof is called "trolling".

Do it again and you'll be banned so fast your head will spin.

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Oh please! Reap what you sow! I don't feel one iota of guilt over how OUR ancestors behaved. So we had slaves, so what? So did most of the world. It's our history, for better or worse and I refuse to feel any guilt over it.

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You personally shouldn't feel any guilt for actions you took no part in: no one is pretending otherwise. But as a nation, we’ve a long history of unfair discrimination, and it’s only fair efforts are made to change this. You claim you’re all for equality; you should be right behind this.

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If this country is so 'liberal and one with it's fellow brother' as we preach, surely such steps aren't needed? Where I work no-one is treated different, skin colour, sexual orientation. I see no evidence that enough prejudice exists in this country, that warrents a law to aid others.

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You haven't got out into the world much then (am I just stating the obvious here?).

Prejudice is rife in many places. Here's just one example (Warning: link contains strong and racist language): www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=351000

The only laws we have are to prevent prejudice - unfairly discriminating against someone because of who they are. How can you possibly disagree with that? (Unless you support people’s right to be prejudiced in dealing with others, of course.)

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And 'pro-active action' is just a friendly term for positive DISCRIMINATION. You're becoming as talented as covering things in a cheerful coat of sugar as the BNP. Maybe you should join them and offer tips.

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Are you going out of your way to be purile and offensive, or is it just a natural talent?

"Pro-active action" would mean, for example, actively recruiting among people who are under-represented, initiatives to prevent bigoted and unfair actions in the workplace, dispelling myths and ignorance. No where does it mean discrimination.

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by Byron
Do it again and you'll be banned so fast your head will spin.

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Don't throw around threats so easily. I've done nothing wrong. No I haven't bothered to find site records to back up my point, but you think every post on this site has been backed up. Please! I was not 'fabricating', it comes up in the news papers on occassions. But I recycle so sadly I can't find the proof. Also, I'm not the only on the thread, alone, who agreed that it happens. You gonna ban them too?

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by Byron
itÂ’s only fair efforts are made to change this

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Have I oppressed you in some way Byron? Does slavery still exist in this country? Are there two seperate seats on buses for blacks and whites? Get over your own self-rightousness! This country doesn't owe reperations to anyone. We don't oppress black/asians/gays, some may, but as a country we don't.

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by Byron
You haven't got out into the world much then (am I just stating the obvious here?).

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by Byron
Are you going out of your way to be purile and offensive, or is it just a natural talent?

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Look who's talking! You think any of the staff will support you when it's blatently obvious you're just as bad? You may disagree with my views, fine. You may think my views are wrong, fine, but if you ban me for that, you'll prove what everyone has said. It's a free world, and I will not curp my views for anyone, least of all for you.

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by Byron
Pro-active action" would mean, for example, actively recruiting among people who are under-represented,

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You mean everyone but white people. To me that's called discrimination. Offering assistance in hiring none whites is, by defination not equal, an action I despise.

General if I have a problem I point it out be e-mail, and I'm sorry this time I didn't. But you don't get to throw around threats and not be called on it. I call you bluff! Ban me for thinking diferently! Or back off, your choice!

geez chill down fellas
byron - i feel as a host youve gone to far
kieran - let it go its not going anywhere

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by KieranFrost
Don't throw around threats so easily. I've done nothing wrong. No I haven't bothered to find site records to back up my point, but you think every post on this site has been backed up. Please! I was not 'fabricating', it comes up in the news papers on occassions. But I recycle so sadly I can't find the proof. Also, I'm not the only on the thread, alone, who agreed that it happens. You gonna ban them too?

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You're the only one who said: "maybe if they Government stopped bringing out so many anti-white laws, such as positive discrimination, a lot more people wouldn't go to the other ludicros[sic] extrmeme[sic]. Just a thought..."

Which is a very provocative statement and serious accusation with nothing to back it up. I'm not going to personally ban you (I couldn't if I wanted to!), but trolling isn't allowed here, whatever the ideology of the person doing it.

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Have I oppressed you in some way Byron? Does slavery still exist in this country? Are there two seperate seats on buses for blacks and whites? Get over your own self-rightousness! This country doesn't owe reperations to anyone. We don't oppress black/asians/gays, some may, but as a country we don't.

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This country enslaved a lot of people, and invaded a lot of countries without provocation: who absolved us of all guilt? This country also systematically discriminated against people for decades. Prejudice doesn't have to be as overt as "Whites Only" signs to exist - surely you realize that?

Is there any reason whatsoever that citizens of ethnic minorities don’t deserve equal protection under the law? That’s all anyone is saying.

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Look who's talking! You think any of the staff will support you when it's blatently obvious you're just as bad? You may disagree with my views, fine. You may think my views are wrong, fine, but if you ban me for that, you'll prove what everyone has said. It's a free world, and I will not curp my views for anyone, least of all for you.

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Where exactly have I tried to "curb your views"?

Come on, where?

You seem to be very keen to become a martyr!

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You mean everyone but white people. To me that's called discrimination. Offering assistance in hiring none whites is, by defination not equal, an action I despise.

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The only reason non-whites require assistance is because they're often discriminated against. Whites have no problem getting jobs. It would be unfair not to offer assistance to people who are being discriminated against. This isn't giving them jobs because of their colour (that's illegal), it's just encouraging them to apply in the same way white people are quite comfortable in doing.

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General if I have a problem I point it out be e-mail, and I'm sorry this time I didn't. But you don't get to throw around threats and not be called on it. I call you bluff! Ban me for thinking diferently! Or back off, your choice!

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Again with the self-imposed martyrdom. Give an example of where I wanted to "ban you for thinking differently"? I just said trolling was unacceptable here, nothing more, nothing less.

(Edited by Byron 22/11/2002 21:11)

Kieran:

While the thread may have got heated, I was wrong to insult you, and to accuse you of trolling in the thread, this was not acting in an appropriate or professional manner.

Tangent21’s staff always strives to set a good example and in this case I let my conduct slip, for which I unconditionally apologise.

Regards, Byron

As a site we love people to be able to express their views, and we encourage free and frank discussions in a spirit of community. There is a line between that and trying to instigate arguments and bad reactions: what netspeak would call "trolling", and it's important people ensure that what they post is condusive to discussion, and not argument.

That said, we as a staff should always strive to provide a good example by not reacting and being polite even where things are provocative: it's what we ask of members and it's what we ask of ourselves.

Hopefully this thread can continue, if people are interested in discussing what is an important issue and as long as it isn't going to get personal.

(Please, comments about the topic, and not this post, or Byron's above, thanks )


(Edited by Julz 26/11/2002 22:24)

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by KieranFrost


3) maybe if they Government stopped bringing out so many anti-white laws, such as positive discrimination, a lot more people wouldn't go to the other ludicros extrmeme. Just a thought...

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I think that a lot of what people see as anti-white laws, they choose to see as anti-white laws.

The fire brigade are actively recruiting from the black & asian community at the moment. A lot of people have choen to see that as Anti-white which it's not.

Trying to re-address a balance is not anti-white.

OK, a little hesitant here. I missed all the events before, and this is the first time I've seen this thread. I wasn't sure about responding, as I didn't want to rekindle any unpleasantness (and I am certainly not passing judgement on who did what and who's in the wrong). I guess I'm worried about being seen as trying to stir up trouble, when the truth is that this subject is close to my heart, and there are many issues raised that I feel need addressing.

So I'll try and tread lightly.

Firstly, the reason why this thread was posted. The behaviour of the BNP as reported is undemocratic, deplorable, and more than a little worrying, with this business of video taping activists of other parties. I also am sad to here that enough people in the Mill Hill area of Blackburn were fooled into voting for these people, though more on why in a second. What also worries me is that there are many places where I could easily see this repeated. Whitley in Reading, Gipton and Seacroft in Leeds and Benwell and Byker in Newcastle, just looking at the towns and cities I've lived in. Just goes to show the dangers of complacency by not voting, and how many people will blame 'strangers' for their own problems.

But I can't stop there. This thread has thrown up some issues beyond the election that need to be tackled. Firstly the nature of the BNP.

Considering what has been said, I decided to log on to [Warning: This website contains racist and homophobic opinions that some readers may find offensive] www.BNP.org.uk. Reading the issues and news stories you don't see much mention of Nazis, swastikas or Hitler. There was one story about a Fascist (one of their own members, and their own way of referring to him) being arrested in Scotland for distributing leaflets likely to cause racial violence, but that's it.

So how can we summarize their values? They are opposed to all immigration and wish to offer voluntary emigration of anyone who isn't Anglo-Saxon. But there is a suggestion that they believe that the UK should only be occupied by Anglo-Saxons and be of one 'British culture'. They are also opposed to Irish independence. And to the European Union. They also want investment in transport and want to protect the environment. Basically a mixture of racist and populist agendas.

More enlightening was the link to Books. Here we have quiet a mix and I recommend all of you to read through this list, and the descriptions provided, right to the end. Lots of lovely stuff on Anglo-Saxon mythology - Arthur, Robin Hood et al. Lots of lovely books on Celts and early histories of the peoples of northern Europe (ostensibly what is known today as Germany, the British Isles and Scandinavia). Great stuff. Love it. Some more modern heroes like Nelson also get covered. But there's some far more insidious stuff in here. Lots of books on the biological and genetic proof that races are inherently different and operate best when separated. Clearly racist stuff. Lots of stuff on how Churchill sold out the British to the Americans, and started a war that was unnecessary (can anyone here say holocaust?). Quiet a lot of stuff that effectively says we should not have gone to war with Nazi Germany. Also standing out (for me) was a number of books about Zionism and Mossad. All very critical, but our caring guide is quick to point out the author is a 'courageous .. Non-Zionist Jew'. In fact, they seem to go out of their way to make sure anything critical about the Jewish people must be written by Jews. Nothing overly anti-Semitic, after all I would describe myself as an anti-Zionist but have a hatred of anti-Semitism. But this is a web site that continually argues we should concern ourselves with the British and not other countries. So why should a member of the BNP be interested in the activities of a foreign security force and the expansionist intensions of a country that is a continent away? Although the last book on the list gives the answer away - 'Zionist Factor' a book about how the Jews are to blame for the USSR, World War II and a load of other stuff.

There's also a load of books on the dangers of global capitalism, the European Union, Nationalism, attacks on multi-culturalism and attacks on Liberalism (ie - the belief we should be free to do as we please as long as we do not impinge on the liberties of others). Particularly offensive to me was the inclusion of Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche. It includes the misunderstanding that it is 'A doctrine of ethnic progress towards the development of the superman.' It isn't anything of the sort. Although this twisting was used to promote the idea of a 'Pure Aryan Race' by one Adolph Hitler.

Who were the National Socialist German Workers' Party? What characterised them. Overt Nationalism - Germany for Germans, and only concerned with making Germany 'Strong'. Anti-Semitism and Racism in general should need no explaining. Opposition and hatred of Communism and Liberalism. They started out as an Authoritarian party with a belief in 'natural' roles for men and women, whites and blacks, and an abhorrence of the 'unnatural’ homosexual. Later they held the same views but with a Totalitarian rather than Authoritarian approach. They also used populist tactics to gain power. They weren't socialists, but opposed to them yet the word appears in the party title. They had no concern for workers over owners. Yet the concerns of the proletariat were used to win them over.

The BNP are clearly racist, with specific anti-Semitic over tones. They believe in a 'Britain for the British' and a withdrawal from international concerns. They are opposed to Liberalism and Socialism, and hold Authoritarian views. They want an Aryan UK. They believe the Second World War should not have happened and demonize Churchill. They have also a tendency to jump on what are for them neutral issues, but which have a high concern level with many members of the public. That is, populist policies.

The British National Party are not the National Socialist German Workers Party. But they have common aims, and the former take a lot of inspiration from and have an admiration of the latter. If this does not justify calling them Nazis, I do not know what does. They are far more dangerous than just being racists.

Finally, there has been some misinformation above. There are no anti-white laws in this country. No quotas required by law for the colour of the skin of members of parliament. The only quota that exists is that 10% of employees should be disabled. This was introduced after the war as a way of ensuring that ex-soldiers wounded in the war would be able to find employment. However, this law has never been enforced and is not the case in the vast majority of work places. A number of services are seen as being racist. The Police Force is one such case, with overwhelming statistics to back this up. The Police Force have suggested themselves that one cause of this is that it has a disproportionately low level of members from other races, when compared with the demographics of this country. Therefore a number of actions have been initiated to encourage other races to apply. However, they still have to go through the same selection method as any white applicant. Nothing is done to make it easier, just to encourage interest.

There are other concerns. The vast majority of employers are white. Unemployment in black communities is much higher than in white. There appears to be some level of racism in the recruitment process, whether conscious or not. For this reason many people advocate voluntary quotas. This has been used to help representation of woman and other races. But there is no legal requirement for such quotas. Where they have been applied it has been done voluntarily. And they are far from being a statement that women and blacks are not good enough to get the jobs. Rather that many employment processes are too racist to let them fulfil their potential.

Finally, racism is rife, as is homophobia. People are harassed, raped and killed on a regular basis because they aren't white or they aren't heterosexual. The idea that such bigotry is a thing of the past and no concern of ours today I find deeply offensive, as well as utterly untrue.

I equally find disinformation like 'anti-white laws' deeply offensive. It is disinformation like this that helps people like the BNP get elected in the first place.



(Edited by Desire 01/12/2002 20:22)

Just two minor notes:
1) Not that I am accusing you but Kieran you always seem quick to put the blame on the government. Am I wrong here or do you have a disagreement with this governments performance?
2)Jayjay I may have finally figured out why you stop so many threads - you put the whole conversation in perspective.

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by Havoc
2)Jayjay I may have finally figured out why you stop so many threads - you put the whole conversation in perspective.

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No he doesn't!! He just waffles

As for Anti-White laws, I think its just a common misconception. People think that because its a common goal of the government to try to employ greater numbers of people from ethnic minorities that its actually law, when its not. I dont think Kieran was badly off the mark, I think he just confused the fact there were actually laws on the matter.

Regarding positive discrimination, what JayJay and others have said is that it is only the marketing of the job that is affected, eg, targetting black communities for police jobs as there are already plenty of white applicants. I think this is fine, its only the same way advertising companies selectively choose the areas and times they place adverts so as to select the highest target market. As long as the aim is to get a proportional representation of white and ethnic minority candidates applying for the job then I have no problem.

I think the issue most people have is the pressure many employers feel under to actually bias the interviewing stage in order to select ethnic minority candidates. This would be positive discrimination, but unfortunately like our mans actions in Manchester Uni, unless it can be proved there isnt anything you can do about it.

(Edited by Funky Monkey 27/11/2002 12:27)

I think that one of the reasons why the BNP are getting more votes is that they use local issues rather than global, for instance where a deprived "white" area exists near a deprived "ethnic" area any percieved imbalance in allocation of funds for community projects by the council will be siezed upon by the BNP as an issue, maybe the ethnic area got a play group first, it doesn't really matter what nor does it have to be true it's peoples perception of the truth that count.

It may also be true that people are sick of the party in power at the moment and voting BNP is more of a protest vote.

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Finally, racism is rife, as is homophobia. People are harassed, raped and killed on a regular basis because they aren't white or they aren't heterosexual. The idea that such bigotry is a thing of the past and no concern of ours today I find deeply offensive, as well as utterly untrue.

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I don't think racism and homophobia are as rife as you are making out, it does exist no doubt and at unacceptable levels. I think great strides have been taken to stop this.
I would agree that non whites and homosexuals are harassed more but to say they are killed/raped on a regular basis is as true as saying the elderly, white, young, straight etc etc are killed/raped on a regular basis, to me you are implying that non whites and homosexuals are the majority/more likely to be murdered/raped than the rest of the community and I do not believe this to be true.

(Edited by azrael 28/11/2002 16:00)

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by Havoc
2)Jayjay I may have finally figured out why you stop so many threads - you put the whole conversation in perspective.

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by Sydney
No he doesn't!! He just waffles

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It's true. I do waffle. But really I think I am the slayer of threads because I don't know when to shut up. That, and the fact that it is my destiny...

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by Azrael
I don't think racism and homophobia are as rife as you are making out, it does exist no doubt and at unacceptable levels. I think great strides have been taken to stop this.

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Have we come a long way since the 60's and the advent of a successful civil rights movement? Certainly. Does this mean the problems gone? Not on your nelly. I stand by my statement. And yes, white and heterosexual people are killed and attacked on a regular basis, but very rarely for the fact that they ARE white and/or heterosexual. You know many people who were gang raped for being straight? Because I know far too many people who were for being gay. Or found burning excrement posted through their letterbox on a daily basis for being white?

Being 'different', whether the colour of your skin, the nature of your sexuality or whatever seems to make you a target for hate and violence, in the eyes of too many people in this country. And then there's the more subtle stuff. Not hatred, but a feeling of 'them and us'. That somehow like should stick to like, while forgetting that we're all human beings.

Sorry Jayjay, you know I love to disagree The examples you gave such as 'excrement', I really don't think even happen to 1% of the black population, which is even less than the overall population of Great Britain (and North Ireland, or is that included in GB, not sure, sorry uzzled

Not every gay person or black person beaten up is due to race or sexuality. The number of people you can't even tell are gay, so how are they targeted? Yes, being 'different' makes you stand out, so does weight, colour hair, glasses... nearly everyone stands out. And before you come back with "how many people who are fat are beaten up" not as many, but their lives can still be made hell by high-school bullies, or drunk loughts at the pub.

I've never met anyone gay/black/straight/white, who has even been threatened due to skin colour/sexuality. Yes it happens, no it hasn't been wiped out, but it is decresing every year, few people give one, to be frank. We have better things to do with our time than care who you sleep with or where you come from.



(Edited by Desire 01/12/2002 20:28)

Taken from the Observer (http://society.guardian.co.uk/socialcare/news/0,8372,439966,00.html):

Race attacks are almost 10 times more likely to happen in rural areas, according to an exclusive survey for The Observer , which also shows that more than two thirds of people think the police are as racist as ever.

Two years after the publication of Sir William Macpherson's report into the Stephen Lawrence murder inquiry, our findings show that one in 12 of the ethnic minority population in Northumbria have reported a racist incident since February 1999, compared with one in 200 in the West Midlands.

Confidence in police handling of race-related incidents has also plunged. An exclusive poll by ICM for The Observer found that more than 70 per cent of the public think the police are as racist, or more so, than they were when the Macpherson Report was published.

Sir John Stevens, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, which serves the country's largest ethnic minority community, last night yesterday described the survey's findings as 'disappointing'.

Using official Home Office figures on racist incidents in each constabulary and plotting them against the size of the local ethnic minority population, a startling racial audit shows a country where safety lies in numbers.

The most dangerous areas for ethnic minorities are also those where there are the smallest communities. Northumbria tops the list, but is closely followed by Devon and Cornwall and south Wales, where racial crimes affect one in 15 and one in 16 respectively. Other race crime hotspots are Norfolk, Avon and Somerset, Durham and Cumbria. Between them, the top 10 worst constabularies in England and Wales for racist incidents are home to just 5 per cent of the total ethnic minority population.

By contrast it is the urban centres - London, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and Leicestershire - which appear to be the safest. Racist incidents affected just one in 200 of the ethnic minority population in the West Midlands, according to statistics.

Please remember, that there is a huge difference between reported, recorded and actual crimes. The above stats refer to recorded crimes only.

Unfortunately, due to the fact the police do not record the number of crimes that were homophobic, I haven't been able to find any statistics in this area. I only know though my experience that the majority of my gay friends over the years have tales of either rape, assault, loss of job, loss of home, loss of family, loss of friends, or combinations thereof. We might not be marked by a pigmentation of skin, but for most people all it takes is to hold hands or kiss someone of the same gender, for these crimes to be enacted against them. Or to attend known gay venues. Maybe act or dress a little camp. Oh, how about just being 'out'? We're not that hard to find. Especially if you are looking for someone to enact your hate out on.

(Edited by Jayjay 01/12/2002 18:38)

Well no one beat me up when I went dressed as a schoolgirl to last new years party. Thankfully. But then I didnt go up the Roxy, if I did I probably would have got stabbed.

Talking of which any ideas of who I can dress up as this time? Id quite like to go as Maryln Munroe. And it has to be a girl cos its only once a year I get to crossdress...

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by KieranFrost
I've never met anyone gay/black/straight/white, who has even been threatened due to skin colour/sexuality.

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Whereas I've met lots, and even been threatened myself by people who mistakenly thought I was gay. But then I grew up in a small town in West Yorkshire, and not the apparent oasis of tolerance and sexual/racial harmony that you come from.

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Yes it happens, no it hasn't been wiped out, but it is decresing every year, few people give one, to be frank. We have better things to do with our time than care who you sleep with or where you come from.

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I'm extremely curious as to exactly who this 'we' is.

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by In A State of Dan
I'm extremely curious as to exactly who this 'we' is.

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Myself, my friends, work colleges etc... It is a generalization as well, involving the population. I atleast hope you have better things to do than care about those two facts.

By the way, is it me, or are your posts getting nastier each time? In the last 'I don't know how many' posts, you seem to always be snide and underhand with comments towards me. I could of course be mistaken