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Sorry but I totally couldn't be bothered to read all that. (I know pointless post, but hey, that's my input...)
Posted: 18:51 Dec 12 2002
The ultimate betrayal, no questions asked
I am of the opinion that we should oust Blair before he does any serious and lasting damage to this country, that despite it's roughness around the edges is still a great place to live. The article above, from the Times, is a very worrying glimpse of what the future may hold.
THE TIMES
Removed by request of The Noid; here is a link.
Relevant Times Article @ www.TheTimes.co.uk
We need to stop this now before it is too late!
(Edited by Mr Bob 12/12/2002 23:12)
Posted: 18:51 Dec 12 2002
The Ultimate Betrayal, no questions asked is in The Empire Strikes Back when LAndo sells out Han, Chewie and Leia to the Empire in order to protect his own skin.
Or maybe it's in the Matrix, when Cypher makes the deal with Agent Smith to deliver Morpheus to them.
Or maybe it's in the Matrix, when Cypher makes the deal with Agent Smith to deliver Morpheus to them.
Posted: 19:18 Dec 12 2002 
Both very good 'ultimate betrayal's, but I still believe Blair is going to top that if he continues like he is.
Posted: 19:21 Dec 12 2002 Ditto.
by Ethan
Sorry but I totally couldn't be bothered to read all that.
I vote Matrix.
by MonSTeR
Or maybe it's in the Matrix, when Cypher makes the deal with Agent Smith to deliver Morpheus to them.
Posted: 19:23 Dec 12 2002 
Two good examples, Mon, and as I can't think of any other cases at the moment, I'd have to vote for Cypher in the Matrix. Only because he actually killed people when he betrayed Morpheus. Whereas Han was only frozen in carbonite and Lando later helped in his rescue from Jabba The Hutt and helped destroy the Death Star and complete the Rebellion's victory over the Empire. 
(Edited by Whistler 12/12/2002 19:31)
(Edited by Whistler 12/12/2002 19:31)
Posted: 19:30 Dec 12 2002
How about Faith switching sides and joining forces with the mayor in Buffy S3? That's quite a biggy too 
I mean, come on man... it was her destiny! 
I mean, come on man... it was her destiny!
Posted: 19:33 Dec 12 2002 Ah, good point. Forgot about that one. And Faith is good too.
by Ethan
What about Jean Reno from Mission:Impossible?
What about Ralph in 'The Sound Of Music'? He betrayed the Von Trapp family to the Nazis although I accept he was a NAzi himself but a plea to his humanity fell on deaf ears.
Posted: 19:38 Dec 12 2002 Politics affects everyone of us.
by Ethan
Sorry but I totally couldn't be bothered to read all that. (I know pointless post, but hey, that's my input...)
You should try reading some of the political comment sections in a decent broadsheet sometime. You may be surprised at how good they can be.
Posted: 19:51 Dec 12 2002
The Ultimate Betrayal
Judas Iscariot
But in regards to Mr Bob's post and sorry I didn't read it all either, but me thinks Mr Blair under estimates the British Public.
Judas Iscariot
But in regards to Mr Bob's post and sorry I didn't read it all either, but me thinks Mr Blair under estimates the British Public.
Posted: 20:03 Dec 12 2002
Firstly, I couldn't be bothered to read all of that either. I am just not very good at ploughing through great chunks of text on webpages, no matter how interesting or relavant they may be. Maybe I'm a product of the MTV generation as I need stuff to look good and summarise or it won't hold my attention.
www.mori.com/index-news.phtml?nocache=102648492513
OK, where's our viable alternative then? I keep voting Lib Dem but, unless more people join me...
by Mr Bob
I am of the opinion that we should oust Blair before he does any serious and lasting damage to this country, that despite it's roughness around the edges is still a great place to live.
www.mori.com/index-news.phtml?nocache=102648492513
Posted: 20:16 Dec 12 2002
Hmm... The article is using a lot of phrases that haven't been properly defined.
What powers are we talking about when we're told:
This isn't an area I've read anything about - perhaps they are supposed to be commonly known. However even if this is the case it doesn't mean that people have the same ideas of what it means - even the term 'top-up fees' seems to refer to different ideas in different newspapers recently (perhaps deliberately in order to provoke an immediate reaction in the reader...?)
In any case, this article is asserting assumptions about the implications of what it quotes. It is apparently unaware of it's own "glib, false distinction"s that make its "rhetoric [ed: not so] uniquely repulsive". Whatever the real state of the situation, the cited article makes a poor argument.
Sorry I couldn't respond more to the issues of the post, as I said my own knowledge is somewhat lacking. Do you have any other points of reference on this topic?
And incidentally, surely the replies thus far are more tangential than is respectful to the intent if the orignal post?
What powers are we talking about when we're told:
or what a "new constitution for Europe" entails.
by Mr_Bob
radical new proposals to transfer powers
from Parliament to the European Union.
This isn't an area I've read anything about - perhaps they are supposed to be commonly known. However even if this is the case it doesn't mean that people have the same ideas of what it means - even the term 'top-up fees' seems to refer to different ideas in different newspapers recently (perhaps deliberately in order to provoke an immediate reaction in the reader...?)
In any case, this article is asserting assumptions about the implications of what it quotes. It is apparently unaware of it's own "glib, false distinction"s that make its "rhetoric [ed: not so] uniquely repulsive". Whatever the real state of the situation, the cited article makes a poor argument.
Sorry I couldn't respond more to the issues of the post, as I said my own knowledge is somewhat lacking. Do you have any other points of reference on this topic?
And incidentally, surely the replies thus far are more tangential than is respectful to the intent if the orignal post?
Posted: 20:32 Dec 12 2002
Oh, I *do* apologise, but I'm fed up of reading political threads on here. I usually read this kind of....erm.. 'stuff' elsewhere.
PS - perhaps quoting large chunks of text is not the best way to inspire people on a non-political site to read it. Maybe a link to another appropriate place would have been better? Perhaps our members would not have felt inclined to imply it is too boring to read.
(Edited by Desire 12/12/2002 20:40)
PS - perhaps quoting large chunks of text is not the best way to inspire people on a non-political site to read it. Maybe a link to another appropriate place would have been better? Perhaps our members would not have felt inclined to imply it is too boring to read.
(Edited by Desire 12/12/2002 20:40)
Posted: 20:38 Dec 12 2002 Nobody is required to read the thread (indeed, most people didn't seem to bother). When I come across a thread I'm not interested in I don't hi-jack to my own interests: it would not be in the spirit of the discussion forum. Political and other serious threads have never comprised even half of the content of General Chat and if they did it would not be instead of other threads. Surely, within the rules of the site, we can discuss what we like?
by Desire
Oh, I *do* apologise, but I'm fed up of reading political threads on here. I usually read this kind of....erm.. 'stuff' elsewhere.
PS - perhaps quoting large chunks of text is not the best way to inspire people on a non-political site to read it. Maybe a link to another appropriate place would have been better? Perhaps our members would not have felt inclined to imply it is too boring to read.
(Edited by Desire 12/12/2002 20:40)
Of course further discussion of this should probably be given its own thread, to prevent further interuption of Mr_Bob's. Sorry, Bob.
Posted: 20:55 Dec 12 2002
Demona: No disrespect was intended. But I think what Tam is saying is that what we're striving towards on T21 is to make it a Sci-Fi site which has a general discussion forum for matters off topic. It was never intended to be a venue for hardcore political discussion because there are plenty of other sites that cater for that which I am sure you are already a member of.
Having said that, we don't stop people talking about what they want here as long as it follows the spirit of the site. And there will always be threads that centre upon the 'headline' topics of the moment.
Perhaps it would be best if we now return to Mr. Bob's topic.
Having said that, we don't stop people talking about what they want here as long as it follows the spirit of the site. And there will always be threads that centre upon the 'headline' topics of the moment.
Perhaps it would be best if we now return to Mr. Bob's topic.
Posted: 21:07 Dec 12 2002 Sorry but I absolutely zero interest in politics. I don't vote, haven't in 3 years, don't really intend to start now. What's gonna happen will happen. that and the fact I can't bothered paying over the odds for a 'political' newspaper. C'Mon, do they have page 3?? I don't think so!
by Mr Bob
(quotes)
Politics affects everyone of us.
You should try reading some of the political comment sections in a decent broadsheet sometime. You may be surprised at how good they can be.
Saying that though I can think of plenty of 'political' sites that encourage this kind of debate. I think reading from the replies above I'm not the only one that couldn't be bothered reading it all...
(Edited by Ethan 12/12/2002 21:39)
Posted: 21:38 Dec 12 2002
Monster
The Ultimate Betrayal, no questions asked is in The Empire Strikes Back when LAndo sells out Han, Chewie and Leia to the Empire in order to protect his own skin.
Agreed!
The Ultimate Betrayal, no questions asked is in The Empire Strikes Back when LAndo sells out Han, Chewie and Leia to the Empire in order to protect his own skin.
Agreed!
Posted: 21:48 Dec 12 2002 And maybe a summary to get people interested as well.
by Desire
PS - perhaps quoting large chunks of text is not the best way to inspire people on a non-political site to read it. Maybe a link to another appropriate place would have been better? P
Posted: 21:55 Dec 12 2002 Well, judging on the responses so far, any summary I could have written would have been completely ignored anyhow.
by Tycho
And maybe a summary to get people interested as well.
But I shall consider writing a summary in the future.
Well, if you have no interest in politics, maybe you shouldn't be posting on this thread. As for not voting in any elections, you forsake any right to complain about how the country is run. Maybe if 'page 3' was outlawed you might take an interest.
Ethan
Sorry but I absolutely zero interest in politics. I don't vote, haven't in 3 years, don't really intend to start now. What's gonna happen will happen. that and the fact I can't bothered paying over the odds for a 'political' newspaper. C'Mon, do they have page 3?? I don't think so!
Besides if you are so attached to your 'page 3', maybe you should consider not wasting money on tabloids and spend your money on the real thing.
Posted: 22:16 Dec 12 2002