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by Mr Bob
(quotes)
Well, judging on the responses so far, any summary I could have written would have been completely ignored anyhow.

But I shall consider writing a summary in the future.

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But it could encourage people to go on and read the whole thing. People quire often feel intimidated by a great wodge of text. Plus those on (pay as you go) dialup will tend to skip it purely cos it takes too long. If it is something that sounds interesting, a summary could make them go on to read it.

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by Mr Bob
Besides if you are so attached to your 'page 3', maybe you should consider not wasting money on tabloids and spend your money on the real thing.

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I hope that's not a dig at another member, Mr Bob. If you wish members to discuss your topic, maybe yuo can post a summary of your initial post

just a bit offtopic, but does the copyright policy of the times allow a full quotation of their articles on another site?

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by Whistler
I hope that's not a dig at another member

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No offence, but considering the way several of the hosts have behaved on the thread, I hardly think you are in any position to start emphasising the rules

Yes, maybe Tony Blair wants to take us into the European Union. He might win, but I hope it will come down to a referendum for the public. If more than half are in favour, the government will act. We won't find a world where everyone agrees (it would be SO boring for a start), but we must respect the majority, otherwise nothing will get done. I have little opinion on the European Union, I'm afraid. Hell, hopefully I'll be in America and I won't need to worry

And don't listen to the others Mr Bob, post what you want, how you want

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by The Noid
just a bit offtopic, but does the copyright policy of the times allow a full quotation of their articles on another site?

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This does sound like a no to me, any other interpretations?

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By the Times



2. Acceptable Use Policy
You agree to abide by all applicable laws, regulations and codes of conduct and ensure that any content uploaded or distributed or stored by you does not infringe the rights of others.

All material on the Websites and any material sent to you by e-mail or any other form from the Websites (the "content" or in any way relating to the Websites belongs to our licensors or us. You may retrieve and display content from the Websites on a computer screen, print a single copy of individual pages on paper and store such pages for caching purposes only, all for your personal and non-commercial use alone.

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(Edited by Tycho 12/12/2002 23:02)

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by KieranFrost
(quotes)

No offence, but considering the way several of the hosts have behaved on the thread, I hardly think you are in any position to start emphasising the rules

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I am staff on this site, Kieran. I have been polite on this thread. I do *not* appreciate your tone. It is my job to emphasise the rules on T21. Please don't talk to me like that again. Please read the thtread again. I stated that no disrespect was intended. Indeed, I have tried *twice* to get it back on topic.

And can I remind you it is not your job to say to fellow members they can post what they want. I seem to recall mentioning this to you before.

And I hardly think that you, of all people, can cry innocence in your conduct in some of the recent threads on T21. So tread very carefully.


(Edited by Whistler 12/12/2002 23:12)

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by The Noid
just a bit offtopic, but does the copyright policy of the times allow a full quotation of their articles on another site?

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I don't believe they do - it has been removed and replaced with a suitable link. It was emailed to me by a friend and copyright issues did not occur to me at the time.

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by Whistler
I hope that's not a dig at another member, Mr Bob. If you wish members to discuss your topic, maybe yuo can post a summary of your initial post

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No offense was intended, but Ethan did start a series of non-relevant posts, which is somewhat disrespectful.

I must say in 'Hosts' defence, (and believe me I do not wish to be pulled into a big debate) that in reading and following the whole of this thread, the Hosts have acted in most inoffensive manner. Now don't get me wrong, but in a recent thread posted by I beleive 'Monster' about Topics, we all seemed to agree that T21 was a site that was for just chilling out and somewhere to go, when you needed to chat, and just be yourself. Which is why a music site was eventually agreed. In other words, politics is rammed down our throats in the news, papers, schools (for some) and the last thing you need is to come onto site and discuss it, appreciate this, there are alot of young people using this site, and for them it is way over there heads, or maybe I'm being a little patronising, but still we cope with politics everyday, and surely although this site is about airing and sharing our views, this thread is maybe getting a little too heated. I don't think anybody meant any offence by it, but maybe not getting so heated on a subject that we have to cope with everyday, whether we like it or not, when this is supposed to be a friendly and chat site.
Sits and waits for the backlash!

So, for the third time, let's get the thread back on topic.

Do others feel Mr Blair is out of touch with what the voting public actually want?

this is off topic sorry but i think it is a worth while topic, so again sorry to hijack it

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by whistler
It is my job to emphasise the rules on T21

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i mean no offence but you didnt. to desire and all the others who went off topic you didnt emphasis the rules. you joined in. until someone else pointed it out, you did nothing.

also i think keiran's tone is no worse than yours. yes he shouldnt inforce rules, he shouldnt have to, thats what you are meant to do but didnt.

i dont often post and if ive offended im sorry but i felt i had to comment.

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by KieranFrost
No offence, but considering the way several of the hosts have behaved on the thread, I hardly think you are in any position to start emphasising the rules

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The hosts are of course free to post what they like.

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Yes, maybe Tony Blair wants to take us into the European Union. He might win, but I hope it will come down to a referendum for the public. If more than half are in favour, the government will act. We won't find a world where everyone agrees (it would be SO boring for a start), but we must respect the majority, otherwise nothing will get done. I have little opinion on the European Union, I'm afraid. Hell, hopefully I'll be in America and I won't need to worry

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A referendum would be ideal. If we then joined, I would have no objection. Although I woudl still have misgivings about the whole affair. Maybe we can conduct a discussion about this matter once this furore has died down.

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And don't listen to the others Mr Bob, post what you want, how you want

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Thank you.

*sigh* I give up then.

Slayer, I have covered this already. No disrespect was intended. I have tried to get the thread back on topic three times now. I have tried to respond with every post in this thread, and in feedback, politely. Give me an example within this thread where I have *deliberately* been disrectful to another member or my tone has caused offence and I'll apologise for it.

I'm not sure what else I can do.

(Edited by Whistler 12/12/2002 23:26)

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by Whistler
Do others feel Mr Blair is out of touch with what the voting public actually want?

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Yes, he is. But I think it must be hard for any politician to be 100% in touch with the electorate all of the time. I do however think he is way off the mark if he thinks he can get anywhere on this sort of issue without a referendum. Somethimg this important has to be put to a vote, surely?

Have to agree with Whistler, lets keep this thread for what it was intended for. There is a thread on Feedback about the discussion of politics on the site and I dont think this thread is really going anywhere.

Personally I dont trust Blair, but I know far too little about Europe to really comment on how we should procede with it.

The full text of the speech in question can be found here, and a slightly less biased view of it can be found at BBC News.

I don't think it's any where near as bad as William Rees-Mogg would have us believe, but then he is writing for the Times, which is, by order of the proprietor, anti-Europe in most respects..

Ok then, on topic.

Mr Bob, the only 2 things you can guarentee in life are taxes and death. You don't here me go on and on about the tax on my wages, no. I accept it as part of life and there is very little I can do to change that. I don't moan about how the country us run because as stated before I don't have any interest in politics. It's purely something that has to be accepted.

Hell, I get a work bonus in February but I know it will get the crap taxed out of it, and I can honestly hand on heart say I haven't griped about it at all.. Deal.

EDIT - And purely for reference I do not believe my first post was disrespectful, I think I was making a point that it was just too long to read at the time.

(Edited by Ethan 13/12/2002 00:05)

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by In a State of Dan
I don't think it's any where near as bad as William Rees-Mogg would have us believe, but then he is writing for the Times, which is, by order of the proprietor, anti-Europe in most respects..

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He is going to take us into Europe, such that there is no prospect of extraction without serious economic and political implications, without holding a referendum. This, in my opinion, is indefensible - he is essentially trying to promote himself as President of Europe, which I think is somewhat optimistic. He is not doing what is best for the people of this country, if he does not know what their definitive opinions are - something a referendum can address.

I suspect that he is afraid that the people will go against Europe and his over ambitious hopes will be forever dashed.

It really is time to get back on topic. But I'm an Admin (Triumvirate) and I can cheat

There's a thread for the off-topic portion of this thread in Feedback www.tangent21.com/feedback/topic/3219

I've read this thread repeatedly and I really do believe that all the staff involved (myself excluded, of course) have acted in a way that only makes me proud to be one of them. This thread can't become a big argument, it needs to get/stay back on topic. So all further stuff, thread in feedback

Cheers folks, I'm julz@tangent21.com

(Edited by Julz 13/12/2002 00:13)

Sorry, but that article was a bunch hogwash, and reminded me why I don't read the times. A poor excuse for aimless europhobic and xenophobic jingoism, with no real content and no real value.

I've said elsewhere of my disgust at the actions (rather than the inactions, as Party HQ keep claiming people like me are upset by) of this government. And frankly I do feel betrayed by them. But not over this rubbish.

United States of Europe? Yes, there is an element that wish for this, especially the founding fathers of the European Union. But the idea that this government is intending to surrender sovereignty without a referendum is just so much scaremongering - not to mention constitutionally impossible.

Let's try looking at the facts. A referendum was held for our membership of the European Union and we joined. Our sovereign parliament has the right to succeed from the Union at any point. This will remain so after any changes in the nature of the pact signed by the member states. We will continue to have an independent financial system. We will continue to have an independent armed force. All changes to the legal system will have to be ratified by parliament. Joining the Euro will only be done by referendum. And if a true United States of Europe (something the majority do NOT want throughout Europe) is ever proposed then our constitution will require a referendum for this to happen. Parliament does not have the right to surrender sovereignty without the express consent of the people of this country.

Blair wants a more united Europe, a more co-operative Europe. I suspect he even wants a Federal Europe, but would never publicly advocate this due to its lack of popularity. That's ok, because as long as we don't want it, it can't happen.

All this rubbish about 'European Empire' and 'ruled by the Franco-German political class', amongst others, was not only empty rhetoric, but offensive empty rhetoric. Let's kick Blair's bum for the mess he is making of things, and not make up rubbish instead?