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Increase income tax (and the base allowance to avoid hitting the worst off). Abolish Loans and Fees and reintroduce grants.
But then I'm just a mad commie.
But then I'm just a mad commie.
Posted: 23:22 Dec 12 2002
Funding For Higher Education
What methods do you think are best for funding the current and future increase in numbers in higher education?
And, following one suggestion already made: Should some universities be allowed to charge higher fees than others?
And, following one suggestion already made: Should some universities be allowed to charge higher fees than others?
25 Replies and 2710 Views in Total. [ 1 2 ]
Posted: 23:22 Dec 12 2002 Dunno, sounds pretty good to me.
by Jayjay
Increase income tax (and the base allowance to avoid hitting the worst off). Abolish Loans and Fees and reintroduce grants.
But then I'm just a mad commie.
A friend of mine collected her first from Bristol Uni a couple of years ago now. If Bristol were allowed then to charge the sort of fees that they want to, then she would not have been able to even contemplate starting her degree & Bristol Uni would later have lost out on a very capable PHD student (cheap labour lecturer)
Posted: 23:32 Dec 12 2002
I have heard suggestions of a Graduate tax (or it may be something they have in Scotland already, I forget). This sounds like a good idea as long as the graduate is earning over a certain amount before they have to pay it. I keep hearing stuff about higher education being an investment and graduates earning 400k more over a lifetime, but I have to say that it's not my experience. Five years after graduating I am still earning less than my younger sister who didn't go to university, and resent the assumption that all graduates are earning 20k plus from day one.
I do feel that one solution to the problem would be for the government to abandon this silly idea of 50% of all school leavers going into higher education. There are few barriers to anyone who wants to do a degree these days (financial worries aside), and I think that there are very few people who want to go to uni but miss out because there aren't enough places. I think it's a pointless target (because not all of those 50% will be suited to HE), that will stretch universities to the limit and devalue the qualifications earned.
Mind you, it could all be academic (ahem), if 18-year-olds start to get put off the idea of going to uni by the thought of a lifetime of debt.
I do feel that one solution to the problem would be for the government to abandon this silly idea of 50% of all school leavers going into higher education. There are few barriers to anyone who wants to do a degree these days (financial worries aside), and I think that there are very few people who want to go to uni but miss out because there aren't enough places. I think it's a pointless target (because not all of those 50% will be suited to HE), that will stretch universities to the limit and devalue the qualifications earned.
Mind you, it could all be academic (ahem), if 18-year-olds start to get put off the idea of going to uni by the thought of a lifetime of debt.
Posted: 23:40 Dec 12 2002 
Well, I am 4,857 UKP in debt for my first year, I will have received another 4,905 UKP for this year. By the end of my four year degree, I am likley to be in debt to approximately 20,000 UKP.
If they decide to charge me another three to four thousand pounds each year, I will have to pay it, I cannot afford not to and hence, I will be in debt to approximately 28,000 UKP. This is essentially a small mortgage - it will probably take me a decade to pay it off!
Fees for me are a bad idea. Where has the time honoured principles of free education and education for all gone? This government is basically causing trouble and anxiety to everyone, students, fire-fighters and london public sevice staff (excluding those money-grabbing tube drivers) to name a few.
As for an acceptable solution, I have to like JayJay's solution, but one has to be slightly envious of USA's position. However, I don't think the American system is the right solution for us.
If they decide to charge me another three to four thousand pounds each year, I will have to pay it, I cannot afford not to and hence, I will be in debt to approximately 28,000 UKP. This is essentially a small mortgage - it will probably take me a decade to pay it off!
Fees for me are a bad idea. Where has the time honoured principles of free education and education for all gone? This government is basically causing trouble and anxiety to everyone, students, fire-fighters and london public sevice staff (excluding those money-grabbing tube drivers) to name a few.
As for an acceptable solution, I have to like JayJay's solution, but one has to be slightly envious of USA's position. However, I don't think the American system is the right solution for us.
Posted: 23:48 Dec 12 2002 That is essentially how the Student Loans work at the moment. So realistically they are just rebranding part of the student loan.
by Lori
I have heard suggestions of a Graduate tax (or it may be something they have in Scotland already, I forget). This sounds like a good idea as long as the graduate is earning over a certain amount before they have to pay it.
Posted: 23:51 Dec 12 2002 Except that with a student loan you have X amount of debt looming over you, whereas what I read about seemed to hint that this tax would all go into a big grants 'pot'.
by Mr Bob
That is essentially how the Student Loans work at the moment.
Those studenty debts sound painful already, Mr Bob. Fingers crossed the top-up fees never appear.
Posted: 23:59 Dec 12 2002 I have no problem with it being paid for, as it was until a few years ago, by the general public through (means-tested) grants. The relative sums involved really aren't that high, and I think it's outrageous that anyone should have to face the levels of debt involved at the moment, let alone anything higher.
by Demona
What methods do you think are best for funding the current and future increase in numbers in higher education?
No.
And, following one suggestion already made: Should some universities be allowed to charge higher fees than others?
What she said.
by Lori
I do feel that one solution to the problem would be for the government to abandon this silly idea of 50% of all school leavers going into higher education. There are few barriers to anyone who wants to do a degree these days (financial worries aside), and I think that there are very few people who want to go to uni but miss out because there aren't enough places. I think it's a pointless target (because not all of those 50% will be suited to HE), that will stretch universities to the limit and devalue the qualifications earned.
(Edited by In a State of Dan 13/12/2002 00:07)
Posted: 00:07 Dec 13 2002
I would increase the fees of courses deemed less useful to the country as a whole, such as "David Beckham studies" and the like and spread the whole scale across the range of courses to fund those of most use to the country and its people for example teacher training and medicine. I'm not sure how I'd determine the exact level of benefit, but I'm sure that folks can spot the obvious ones...
I'd also award funding to students based on their academic ability. Rewarding those who achieved the highest grades most and penalising those who did miserably at school and yet still wished to go to university.
I'd also correlate that with a students suitability for the course, and their aptitudes. It'd mean reconfiguring 6th form education too, but hey
Hopefully that would mean that those students most suited for a course that would lead to them becoming a valuable and capable member of society would be completely paid for and those who used university as 3 years to bum around would think twice or face the financial consequences.
If a bright person wanted to go to university for something they were good at, but wasn't particularly beneficial to siciety they might get their fees and accomodation paid, but have to come up with living expenses or something similar.
I'd also award funding to students based on their academic ability. Rewarding those who achieved the highest grades most and penalising those who did miserably at school and yet still wished to go to university.
I'd also correlate that with a students suitability for the course, and their aptitudes. It'd mean reconfiguring 6th form education too, but hey
Hopefully that would mean that those students most suited for a course that would lead to them becoming a valuable and capable member of society would be completely paid for and those who used university as 3 years to bum around would think twice or face the financial consequences.
If a bright person wanted to go to university for something they were good at, but wasn't particularly beneficial to siciety they might get their fees and accomodation paid, but have to come up with living expenses or something similar.
Posted: 00:13 Dec 13 2002 
Yeah Mon, also re-introducing apprenticeships for those that only go to uni because they have nothing better to do, and build up the severely depleated trade skills.
Once the base structure is complete and a lot of the chaff is cut away, then you can see what you are left with and go from there.
Universities also have other options such as overseas students too, My uni brought in students from Malaysia and they were charged around £10,000 term, they could obviously afford it as there was never any shortage.
Closer ties with industry would help too, with companies sponsoring courses and creaming the crop of the best students for workplacements and eventual employment.
A graduate tax is a nasty idea, paying 50 years of tax for something that only lasted 4 years? I think not!
Once the base structure is complete and a lot of the chaff is cut away, then you can see what you are left with and go from there.
Universities also have other options such as overseas students too, My uni brought in students from Malaysia and they were charged around £10,000 term, they could obviously afford it as there was never any shortage.
Closer ties with industry would help too, with companies sponsoring courses and creaming the crop of the best students for workplacements and eventual employment.
A graduate tax is a nasty idea, paying 50 years of tax for something that only lasted 4 years? I think not!
Posted: 00:58 Dec 13 2002 But we're not talking about basic education here: it's still possible to get 15 years of free education.
by Mr_Bob
Where has the time honoured principles of free education and education for all gone?
The prevailing opinion here seems to be that students should not have to pay to go to uni. So what do you think the benefit of higher education is to the individual and/or to the country? Or is higher education a right for those capable enough?
Posted: 01:04 Dec 13 2002
Who decides what is a useful subject?
The whole 'David Beckham courses' has been over blown and misrepresented by lazy journalists. There is a media studies degree which has a course on the nature of public attitudes to public figures, and the particular rise in fame of certain characters, like Mr Beckham. But no one is actually studying HIM.
Education enriches our culture whether its a subject we all agree on or not. Great movements have been made in science thanks to people who have studied history. Who'd have fore seen that? We need to stop seeing education as a mean to train robots but as a method of enriching our shared humanity.
And for the record, Graduate taxes suck bum as well. The only moral tax is income tax.
The whole 'David Beckham courses' has been over blown and misrepresented by lazy journalists. There is a media studies degree which has a course on the nature of public attitudes to public figures, and the particular rise in fame of certain characters, like Mr Beckham. But no one is actually studying HIM.
Education enriches our culture whether its a subject we all agree on or not. Great movements have been made in science thanks to people who have studied history. Who'd have fore seen that? We need to stop seeing education as a mean to train robots but as a method of enriching our shared humanity.
And for the record, Graduate taxes suck bum as well. The only moral tax is income tax.
Posted: 01:26 Dec 13 2002 Indeed, basic, well I prefer fundamental, education is indeed free. However, I fear that we may end up on a slippery slope. How long after fees arrive for university education, until some bright-spark in government decides it would be good to charge A-Level students also?
by Demona
But we're not talking about basic education here: it's still possible to get 15 years of free education.
I would like to believe that anyone who wants to go to university should have the right to do so. However, I feel that so many of the new courses have been introduced merely to get government grants. Certainly, I think it is fair to say that if there had not been a huge policy of creating universities out of polytechnics, there would not be a funding crisis.
The prevailing opinion here seems to be that students should not have to pay to go to uni. So what do you think the benefit of higher education is to the individual and/or to the country? Or is higher education a right for those capable enough?
I think it is admirable to attempt to get more people into higher education, but I feel that many of the new HE students are merely jumping through the hoops, and not basing their choices on what is best for themselves. Some students are not suited for HE and would find vocational courses or apprenticeships much more suitable and rewarding.
The apprenticeship has been proved to work in the past, for hundreds of years, it is a shame that this form of education is not being promoted.
Posted: 02:01 Dec 13 2002
well hopefully I will miss the whole paying for uni thing as I'm doing nursing at university which is paid for by the government and I get a bursary whilst in training.
Posted: 10:04 Dec 13 2002 Indeed. In 10 years time it's going to be impossible to find an electrician/plumber but the country will be half full of graduates up to their eyeballs in debt.
by Mr Bob
The apprenticeship has been proved to work in the past, for hundreds of years, it is a shame that this form of education is not being promoted.
Posted: 10:30 Dec 13 2002 And apparently you can earn more as a plumber than a lot of jobs a degree might help you to get..
by Lori
Indeed. In 10 years time it's going to be impossible to find an electrician/plumber but the country will be half full of graduates up to their eyeballs in debt.
Posted: 10:43 Dec 13 2002 Maybe I'm in the wrong field
by In a State of Dan
And apparently you can earn more as a plumber than a lot of jobs a degree might help you to get..
Posted: 11:26 Dec 13 2002 Well some like medicine or teacher training or those that lead to medical research have a measurable and tangible effect I’m sure you’d agree. Others would I agree be very had to pin down. I’d suggest a widespread panel of experts from across the fields to set some levels, but that there are one or two obvious ones that I’d hope would stand out. And the main emphasis should be on the applicant not on the course, I perhaps didn’t stress that enough.
by Jayjay
Who decides what is a useful subject?
I never said that folks couldn’t study off the wall subjects, I even said the brighter ones should get subsidized to do it. I think these days folks realise that “transferable skills” and “cross discipline applications” are important. But what I don’t think is right is that the country should subsidize folks to go to university who won’t benefit academically from it, whether it enriches them as a person or not. Universities are academic institutions after all.
by Jayjay
Education enriches our culture whether it’s a subject we all agree on or not. Great movements have been made in science thanks to people who have studied history. Who'd have fore seen that? We need to stop seeing education as a mean to train robots but as a method of enriching our shared humanity.
Also I’ve never said that those who don’t get the top grades can’t go either. Merely that if they want to go then there will be financial responsibilities that have to be met.
Having a society with an enriched shared humanity would be great I’d love to see that, but not if it leads to a society with an enriched shared humanity that’s short of good teachers, good nurses and good doctors.
Just yes
by Jayjay
And for the record, Graduate taxes suck bum as well. The only moral tax is income tax.
On another note I think, at the moment, the country has devalued the level of the degree, and that currently there are too many folks who really shouldn’t be going or have gone to university, yet seem to regard those 3 years as a right to an easy 3 years, some time to “bum around” before they look for a “proper job”, and I don’t think that’s an attitude that the country as a whole should be paying for
I think I’m trying to say that for an adult, completely free further/higher education should be a privilege awarded to certain dedicated folks, not as a right of those who would use university as some kind of dodge or hustle (Edited by MonSTeR 13/12/2002 12:49)
Posted: 12:31 Dec 13 2002 I have already been affected by the degree devaluation in so far that I never even considered going for the easier Bachelor degree and applied direclty for Masters courses. In my mind, too many people have got B.Sc's these days.
by MonSTeR
On another note I think, at the moment, the country has devalued the level of the degree, and that currently there are too many folks who really shouldn’t be going or have gone to university, yet seem to regard those 3 years as a right to an easy 3 years, some time to “bum around” before they look for a “proper job”, and I don’t think that’s an attitude that the country as a whole should be paying for
Posted: 15:40 Dec 13 2002
Cheers people - I feel great about my Media and Cultural studies degree I studied really hard for
I really despise it when people belittle education at any level. Whenever the GCSE and A-Level results improve its always because "exams are getting easier" never because teaching and studying method have improved. Similarly it seems that the argument here is that more people are getting degrees without putting the effort in. More people actually being able to apply and afford education than a few yaers ago (despite current concerns) is the overriding factor in this.
I really despise it when people belittle education at any level. Whenever the GCSE and A-Level results improve its always because "exams are getting easier" never because teaching and studying method have improved. Similarly it seems that the argument here is that more people are getting degrees without putting the effort in. More people actually being able to apply and afford education than a few yaers ago (despite current concerns) is the overriding factor in this.
Posted: 17:30 Dec 13 2002 [ 1 2 ]