Tangent 21 - Death

Posted by
Maffrew

Posted on
10:56
Feb 11 2003

Death

My question is this...

Death - What's the big deal?

At 7am this morning, I was woken up by my mobile phone. It was my Mum, ringing to tell me that my Grandad died early this morning. Was I upset by this? No, I wasn't. To be honest, I am kind of glad he is dead. He was a heavy smoker and had angina for years, we've also known that he had a brain tumour for several years and he got a bit of senile dementia, so most of the time he had trouble remembering who most people were. Even so, people at breakfast this morning expected me to be upset. I am not.

It could (and probably will) be attributed to the fact that he is old. Most people hate death, but they don't mind it as much if it's someone old, who has been in alot of pain for many years. Death is a release for them.

But not too many months ago my Cousin and her friend died in a car accident. She was driving along and swerved to miss an animal in the road. The car ploughed into a tree, my Cousin and her friend died on impact and two friends in the back were badly injured. She was 17 and had passed her driving liscence for 2 weeks. I was not upset then either. People found this strange.

No-one was nasty about it or anything, but people didn't seem to understand how I could be so unphased by what most would call a tragic accident. Well, I don't understand why they are upset by it.

People live. People die. Life can be and is for the most-part very complicated, but when you take it down to the basics, we are born, we live, we reproduce for the survival of the species and we die. That is the life of the human animal. To me, it seems very simple. Death has this huge stigma attatched to it though. People fear it, they cower from it. Some rush to it as a release.

I can honestly, with my hand on my heart say i do not fear death. I fear pain, I fear harm to my being. But i do not fear death. To me, death means non-existence. My body stops living and thus I am no more. I find nothing to fear in that.

I become puzzled by people who have no connection to a person getting upset about the death of someone they have no connection to. This is most evident with celebrities. On this site even today, there is a post about a celebrity death, and people mourn it. Why? People die all the time, it is the natural progression of life, if you will.

So, my second question is... am i Enlightened, or emotionally stunted?

26 Replies and 3151 Views in Total. [ 1 2 ]

Whistler "I wonder wonder why the wonder falls. I wonder why the wonder falls on me. I wonder wonder why the wonder falls, with everything I touch and hear and see."

I would be upset if someone I personally knew died, particularly my parents or someone who died before their time. I do think it would be strange to be unmoved or upset in that situation. I think that's more down to, perhaps, being detached from extreme emotions generally, not just what is felt at someone's death.

But, I admit, I find it hard to be upset by the death of someone I didn't know (like a celebrity). If it's someone young, who met an untimely death, then I would think it was a tragedy, such as the death of Glen Quinn. But I wouldn't be upset to the point of tears or go into mourning for them. After all, as you say, I didn't know them personally.

Posted: 11:11 Feb 11 2003

Teresa "So I can come inside of your kiss and just leave you on your knees"

by Whistler
If it's someone young, who met an untimely death, then I would think it was a tragedy, such as the death of Glen Quinn.

Was that an untimely death 'tho? Everyone had heard the stories about his "alleged" drug addiction. Did he bring that on himself?

But anyway, death in general. I'm scared to die young. I'm scared of leaving my children to be bought up by someone else. Their Great Nana has cancer and we don't think she'll survive another 6 months. I've tried talking to my 6yr old about this, to prepare him for the inevitable but he gets really upset about it. When her time comes, it's gonna break my heart telling him and I will cry. However, I won't be crying 'cos she's dead. I'll be crying 'cos Sam will be upset and for him realising that people aren't gonna be in his life forever. Great Nana is 82. If she was an animal they would have put her down by now. When she dies it will be a release for her and the exs mum who is practically her full time carer.

I'll cry when any of my immeadiate family go 'cos I'll miss them (especially if it is a sudden death) and God forbid, if anything happened to my children I couldn't imagine going on (but I know that I would have to) but in general death doesn't affect me.

Posted: 11:46 Feb 11 2003

Whistler "I wonder wonder why the wonder falls. I wonder why the wonder falls on me. I wonder wonder why the wonder falls, with everything I touch and hear and see."

by Teresa
(quotes)

Was that an untimely death 'tho? Everyone had heard the stories about his "alleged" drug addiction. Did he bring that on himself?

What I mean by 'untimely death' is a death other than that of old age. So, whether he brought it upon himself or not, it was still a tragedy because he was young. I'm not gauging it by the moral rights or wrongs.

Posted: 11:53 Feb 11 2003

Keenangel *Fourteen phonecalls a night??!!*

I remember this topic coming up in chat a long time ago.

I can sort of see where you're coming from Maff.. people react to death in different ways, i suppose it's a coping mechanism.

When Hannah came along so early and I was being rushed to the operating theatre (it was literally like an episode of ER), i didn't feel anything. I suppose any other woman faced with the very very real prospect of losing their much wanted, longed for child would be hysterical, but i wasn't. I didn't feel anything. Not a thing. I shut down.The nurses couldn't believe how calm i was. I think it was because i knew there was nothing more i could do and i had to leave it in their hands. Once Hannah was born, and survived, i thought, maybe it'll hit me later, but it didn't. I got over it, concentrated on Hannah and Joel and got on, feeling extremely blessed and thankful, but that's how i coped. Now, my nana died over 25 years ago and i was devastated, i still miss her with all my heart now, i wish she could see me now, meet Ray and my kids, because i know she'd have adored them. I was extremely close to my nana. I was upset when my grandma died, but not overly so. I lost a very good friend eighteen months ago and was quite upset too, when my dog died, people here will tell you i was devastated.

Maybe it's a coping mechanism for you Maff, i don't think you're emotionally stunted or anything like that.. i think it's the way you cope with stuff like that.. Ray is pretty much the same. Maybe in the future you'll change, but if you don't feel worried by it (and it sounds like you don't)then why worry too much?. People cope in their own ways.

Incidentally, sorry to hear about your grandad.

Posted: 12:31 Feb 11 2003

Chambler A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

Personally I don't think death in general is a big deal. Death is just a big part of life as birth and its inevitable. There are just two things certain in life and that is death and taxes. (Does that make death an STD?)

So death on itself is not something to be worried about or sad about. The death of someone affects me because I had certain emotional ties to this person and all of a sudden these ties are broken. Mostly the pain of lose really.
If someone has been very ill and has been suffering for so long death can be a beautiful thing.

What Teresa said its very hard for a parent to outlive their children. Death at early age is not persieved normal in our culture and therefor its harder to cope with.

I'll be crying 'cos Sam will be upset and for him realising that people aren't gonna be in his life forever.

Lovely little circle we got here: a child can become sad and cries because their mother is sad. But mummy is sad as she knows her kid will be sad.

But Maff just because you're not sad about death is not weird at all. Its just not very common in our sociaty. There are culture where death is a good thing as those people go onto something better.

Thinking about it isn't being sad about the death of someone a very egoistic thing? As we miss them.... sounds a lot like how did they dare to die on me!

(Edited by Chambler 11/02/2003 12:37)

Posted: 12:33 Feb 11 2003

Miss Edith People don't fall in love with what's right in front of them. People want the dream -- what they can't have. The more unattainable, the more attractive. --Xander

by Maffrew
So, my second question is... am i Enlightened, or emotionally stunted?

I'd say probably the latter

Posted: 12:38 Feb 11 2003

SPIKE "Hakuna Matata" Captain Zapy

Ok, no offence ehre but when you say you're glad hes dead thats eems a bit uncaring. Ok I can see that yeah if he was in pain and stuff then yeah death can bring release or whatever and he won't suffer anymore, but you say you really don't seem to carte or be upset at all, maybe its just burried very deep inside you. To be glad someones dead though doesn't seem right, I suppsoe you can be glad they no longer suffer but surely you must have cared for him ni the past and now hes gone for good. I don't tend to cry when people close to me die, but no noe really close to me has so I dunno how i'd react but i do certainly feel sad, I think when my uncle died I wanted to cry but when I told my mate I sorta chcukled, not that I meant it, I think maybe so I wouldn't cry infront of him it seemed wrong but it was a very strange finding out he was dead. Ok do I fear death myself? I guess yes I do at my age, maybe I won't when i'm older, but as long as I have left a mark on people i'll sorta always live on through them in a way.

Posted: 12:50 Feb 11 2003

MonSTeR No big eyes! No magic powers! No giant robots!

I was never close to one of my grandfathers, ironically the family says I remind them all of him so what does that say eh?

His death brought me no pleasure, but neither did it bring me any pain so I can see where you're coming from on this one Maff.

I think it's normal to be able to rationalise that there's no need to weep over a death that causes you no personal grief. However some folks form emotional attachments to celebrities for whatever reason and thus I think it's normal for those people to also grieve.

But to not fear your own death?!?!? I'd attribute that to inexperience.

Posted: 13:16 Feb 11 2003

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

Shakespeare called death 'the undiscovered country' in Hamlet, and I think that sums up our attitude to it reasonably well. Unless you specialise in necromancy for a day job, you're not going to have any idea about what comes after. It's certainly a major factor in all religions, and many philosophers have speculated we create religion for the purpose of alleviating the impact of death, the ultimate coping mecanism.

Myself, I have to confess I'm nowhere near as accepting of death as Maff is. Last week, I was at the funderal of my step-great grandmother. She'd been a virtual vegitable for two years, and it was unquestionably a relief for her I think, but still I felt a melancholy, dull sadness at the thought she would no longer be there, even though, in reality, she'd long ago departed. It's not that she's gone, because like I say, she's at peace, but because she's not around us, the living any more. In part a selfish feeling certainly, but also sadness that she can't experiance this world any further.

But she was old: death young inevitably hits harder for obvious reasons. Lamenting a life not lived. As I'm athiest, and am fairly certain you cease to exist, the experiances that will never been had inevitably come to mind - if this world is all we have, it hits hard if we don't even begin to make the best of it. That's why I feel empathy with victims of disasters such as the Columbia's destruction, and infintely more, less high-profile events, such as the almost daily deaths - on both sides - in Israel. But empathy doesn't equal mourning: I think we're all stunted to an extent, and our capacity for true mourning is finite - it'd tear us appart if we truly mourned everyone that dies. Best to keep in as good a state of mind as possible and do something about it I think, or we'd all drag ourselves into an unending pit of depression!

I can't say if your feelings are complete stoicism or the ultimate coping mecanism maff, but I'm afraid to say I don't envy you them: I prefer to hurt when people die, because ironically, it's among the most powerful affirmations of life.

Posted: 17:35 Feb 11 2003

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

by MonSTeR
But to not fear your own death?!?!? I'd attribute that to inexperience.

How exactly does one become experianced in the matter of their own death?

Posted: 17:39 Feb 11 2003

Chambler A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

by MonSTeR
But to not fear your own death?!?!? I'd attribute that to inexperience.

Well I'm not afraid of my own death. I'm afraid of the events leading to my death and the bodily discomfort it will cause

Sure its not like I want to die or anything but I'm not afraid of it. I've had a really bad accident when I was 15 which almost costed me my life and I spent a week in hospital pretty heavily insured spent another 4 - 6 weeks recoperating from it. But at the time I was not afraid to die. It was more please let this pain stop!

Also how many people have first had experience on their own death

(Edited by Chambler 11/02/2003 19:07)

Posted: 19:06 Feb 11 2003

Whistler "I wonder wonder why the wonder falls. I wonder why the wonder falls on me. I wonder wonder why the wonder falls, with everything I touch and hear and see."

by Chambler
Also how many people have first had experience on their own death

Didn't Byron just ask that question?

Posted: 19:11 Feb 11 2003

Funky Monkey When I discover who I am, IÂ’ll be free

Maff, i'd say you were emotionally stunted, or that you're actually hiding your emotions deep. This doesn't just relate to this post either, your generally come off as someone who takes a very detatched and impersonal view of events, much like Data in Star Trek might.

My question(s) to you would be, what DO you feel? What powerful emotions run inside of you? What are you passionate about? What makes your blood run cold? What disgusts you?

Are you suggesting, as you seem to in your post, that if someone very close to you were to die, that you would not grieve or feel pain? I didn't grieve when my great aunt died, but then, I hardly knew her. My first true grief was my mother dying, and it is something that still hurts many years later.

I actually have a deep phobia of death, so much so that I feel physically sick if I actually let myself think of the idea of not existing for more than a few seconds. Its like the way you cant stare into the sun, I can't stare into death, my head feels like it will pop and feel im about to hurl. But...when I was only a few years younger than you I had absolutely no fear of death whatsoever.

Facing mortality is one of the really deep aspects about being human, because no other animal has to do it. Denying it is just a defence mechanism in my opinion.

Posted: 19:23 Feb 11 2003

MonSTeR No big eyes! No magic powers! No giant robots!

by Byron
How exactly does one become experianced in the matter of their own death?

It’s not so much a death that you have to experience, but a life. And it’s losing that life that should put the fear of god into you rather than the arrival of the Grim Reaper. Maybe I’m just more fortunate than most, I don’t know? But I’m gonna hang onto life as long and as hard as I can.

Funky Monkey said,

when I was only a few years younger than you I had absolutely no fear of death whatsoever.

I was exactly the same, and I gallivanted across the globe doing all sorts of interesting things with all sorts of interesting people. These days I’m doing my best to keep me in one piece and that one piece in good working order.

Let’s just say I had an epiphany.

For those who don’t fear death, I hope you have one too.

Posted: 20:53 Feb 11 2003

Desire Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money.

I suppose your outlook on this topic depends largely on your personal upbringing, your religious beliefs and your life experiences.

I think fearing or not fearing death really is a very personal thing. IMHO unless you have been close to death it is very hard to imagine how that will be, how it will affect the people you leave behind. I fear hurting the people I love in the worst way, by leaving them for good. I'm more afraid of how my loved ones will react that how I will feel when I'm dead.

by Byron
I prefer to hurt when people die, because ironically, it's among the most powerful affirmations of life.

I understand where you are coming from Byron, but to have the person you love more than anything in the world be killed with no warning, no time to say you love them, leaves you with nothing but pain, guilt and despair. It certainly isn't (for me) an affirmation of life. It is the single most horrific experience of my life and I would rather die myself than have to endure that again.

So I suppose you could say, I do fear death. But not my own.

Posted: 21:24 Feb 11 2003

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

by Desire
I understand where you are coming from Byron, but to have the person you love more than anything in the world be killed with no warning, no time to say you love them, leaves you with nothing but pain, guilt and despair. It certainly isn't (for me) an affirmation of life. It is the single most horrific experience of my life and I would rather die myself than have to endure that again.

I should explain what I mean by that a little clearer. I'm not suggesting for a second that the death of a loved one is in any way a positive thing - it's of course one of the most devastatingly awful experiances we can ever have. But (personally) I've found the sheer pain of death to show more starkly than anything the fragility of life - and just how valuable it really is. Seems obvious of course, but wasn't really something I had really dwelled upon until I experianced the death of someone close myself.

Posted: 21:41 Feb 11 2003

Desire Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money.

I *do* know what you mean By, I guess I'm just emotionally not in a place I can see that right now. I appreciate your explaining though

Posted: 21:49 Feb 11 2003

misskittyfantastic

Well to address the 2 issues here, firstly, I'm kinda half and half on the being scared of death. That is to say if I know it is approaching, i.e if I had a terminal illness, or Iwas getting very old then I Will be scared beyond belief, due to not knowing what lies beyond it and the fact that you know it is coming and barring a miracle can't be avoided.

Right now, on a day to day basis it doesn't really bother me, but that's mainly because it's not the forefront of my thoughts. If I do think about it I'm frightened of what I'm going to be feeling like, rather than the death itself.

Some people say they 'want to go with a bang' but I don't want to see it approach, be it through cancer or car crash. I want to slip away silently without my even knowing it.

As for feelings on the death of other people, I can't see how anyone could not feel hurt or deeply upset over the passing of someone close to them. I lost my Grandma last May and it was one of the most traumatic things in my life. I can honestly say I have never felt so much hurt and grief in my life, heightened more so by seeing her in her last days and knowing what was going to happen.

You mention that you were glad about the death of your grandfather. I can see where you are coming from here as I was glad that my Grandma was finally at peace, but inside was not so glad,I had lost someone so special.

As for celebrities or people that you aren't especially close to, I can see why people hurt. For me I feel upset when I hear of the death of anyone but it's not necessarily their death that is the trigger for that. It's just a sad feeling for loss of life and imagining what people close to them must be feeling. Example: I never knew FunkyMonkey's mother, but I still feel extreme sadness over her death as I know the pain it causes to him.

I must ask Maff, would post the same post, that you weren't at all upset if it was your mother or partner who died?

Posted: 21:59 Feb 11 2003

JtB If someone gives you freedom it is not freedom, freedom is something you take for yourself.

by MonSTeR
(quotes)
Let’s just say I had an epiphany.

For those who don’t fear death, I hope you have one too.

Its not that I fear death I just see it as the culmination of life, I dont partically want to die early but if it happens so be it.

Posted: 22:04 Feb 11 2003

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