Should fireworks be banned? Yes.

www.madmusingsof.me.uk/archives/007008.php#007008

Chambler, What about Diwalli. The Netherlands has a Hindu Communittee, not as big as the UK I grant you, and I beleive the Majority have Indonesian (Due to ancenstry from the Dutch east Indies with its Hindu Minority). How do the Dutch system cope with that as Diwalli also has religous significance for many people.

(Edited by Gopher 10/11/2003 21:11)

If they want fireworks they will need to get it done by a professional and get a proper license as you need to get a license or a permit for just about everything here in NL

Interesting how the comment about cars gets picked up on, but not paracetamols, domestic violence, or kids drinking detergent. But there you go.

Yes you need a license to drive a car. However, I should point out that the £80 fine is for being caught in possession of fireworks. I don't believe there is a fine for owning a car? And yes there are more cars and they get used all year round. That's why they are more of a hazard than fireworks, which was my point.

1017 injuries in one whole year? Last fatality was roughly three years ago? Wouldn't those be fantastic stats for the four counter-examples I used? So which needs tackling more: Fireworks, cars, paracetamols, drunken violence or kids drinking detergent?

Now, which one happens all year round and which one happens over a few weeks every year and is therefore more useful for sensationalised news stories, and grabs our attention because it isn't an everyday occurrence?

I'm not saying the misuse of fireworks isn't a problem. I'm pointing out that laws already exist to tackle their misuse, so why ban them? And am trying to say 'in the grand scheme of things there are more important issues'.

Here's another one. In the last few weeks how many people have been injured or killed due to fireworks, and how many due to the invasion of Iraq? Which one then should be our prime concern?

I have no problem with the laws laid out by Stoo as they seem a natural extension of the laws already in place (it's illegal to maim anyone, unless your NCO tells you to do it, whether by fireworks or other means, no new law is needed against that). However any changes in the law are pointless unless there is the funding for enough police to patrol the streets and to catch kids in the act.

Now, hands up whose prepared to add 1 or 2p in the pound on their income tax so we can have enough coppers to catch kids setting off fireworks?

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by Jayjay
However any changes in the law are pointless unless there is the funding for enough police to patrol the streets and to catch kids in the act.

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Lets just turn that way of reasoning the other way around..... so lets scrap all laws that the police doesn't have enough time / manpower / girlpower to catch everyone that breaks that law.

Laws aren't made so that every person that breaks them can be caught and prosicuted. It's to let people know it's not allowed to do it and that there are certain consequenses to their actions when / if they are caught. Which means that a lot of people won't do it in the first place which in effect means there are less people for the police to go after.

Not everyone that breaks the speed limit is ticketed for doing so.... not every murder is prevented or solved.... Because the UK isn't a police state where we have a speedcam on each inch of asphalt but still we ticket the people that are caught. And if we find a murderer we still put them away although there are still 100'ers walking free because their crimes haven't been discovered yet or just can't be solved

Sure there are bigger problems than fireworks.... Only problem is that the bigger problems normally are harder to solve... Maybe solve as many problems you can with the funds and the manpower you have?

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by Jayjay
Interesting how the comment about cars gets picked up on, but not paracetamols, domestic violence, or kids drinking detergent. But there you go.

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im not attacking so please dont take this as such, you mention paracetamol but dont say why you think they should be considered to be banned and they (and all other forms of painkillers) are not sold to kids.
domestic violence should be banned but how do you percieve it should be enforced? have monitor tellies in all the houses ala 1984 big brother?
you could also ban detergent if you please but it's the duty of the parent (or any adult who has children in their home) to place the stuff in a safe place out of childrens reach or behind a secure door if i child manages to get as far as to take off the child safety cap and drink the stuff im guessing the parent/s are not keeping an eye on them to prevent such things happening.

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by bipolar
you could also ban detergent if you please but it's the duty of the parent (or any adult who has children in their home) to place the stuff in a safe place out of childrens reach or behind a secure door if i child manages to get as far as to take off the child safety cap and drink the stuff im guessing the parent/s are not keeping an eye on them to prevent such things happening.

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It's also the duty of the parent to ensure their kids aren't out endangering themselves and others with fireworks. So what's your point?

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by In a State of Dan
(quotes)
It's also the duty of the parent to ensure their kids aren't out endangering themselves and others with fireworks. So what's your point?

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okay i was asumming the detergent comment was on young children ones that didnt know or could read what detergent was but if we're talking young teenagers again then past a certain age you can not be on your child 24 hours a day trust needs to be given and needs to be shown and proven from both sides, that means allowing them out to play with friends. there is no option to have your child tied up til ya home (though im sure once in a while some parents did wish it possible) part of growing up is the learning process of right and wrong, trust and understanding these kids out there throwing fireworks KNOW its wrong but they do it coz it's "fun" what more can the parent do short of locking them in their room to prevent them hurting themselves or others? that wont help anything and will probably go towards making the child an unbalanced adult ("coz everything is the parents fault nowadays" ) no, mum's and dad's can only do their best then it's up to the child/young adult to make their own decisions. no parent would put a firework in a child/teenager's hand and then say "now go play and blow things up ya young scallywag, oh here's an idea strap it to a cat coz thats dead funny!"

(i may have gone off topic a bit but what im thinking and trying to put it into words is completely different things for me especially when trying to word it so no one can take unneccesery offence, no offence is meant in this post)

(Edited by bipolar 13/11/2003 13:43)

OK...

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by Chambler
Laws aren't made so that every person that breaks them can be caught and prosicuted.

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True. But that wasn't my point. The problem is, as far as I am few, if not none, of the kids letting off these fireworks and endangering or even injuring are caught and punished for their crimes. Why? Because a bunch of kids hanging about streets letting off fireworks and then scarpering are not likely to be caught. Firework comes through your window. You dial 999. You get an ansafone message. You leave a message. 15 to 30 mins later the police turn up (if at all). Where are the felons? Long gone. The nature of the crime is that it is actually harder to find the culprit than your average murder or GBH case. Chances are the police are no more likely to want to follow this up than they are the average break-in or car theft. Because it involves too much leg work and paper work for what is likely to end without catching the criminal. Equally, their bosses don't want them followed up as cases without convictions don't look good on their stats.

This is why I say that passing laws on this particular activity is pointless without increasing staffing levels in the police.

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by bipolar
im not attacking so please dont take this as such

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Don't worry, I don't think I've ever taken anything you've written as an attack. Or is that an error on my part?

I'm not suggesting paracetamols should be banned. Or that CCTV should be installed in every house to stop domestic violence. In fact, it is that kind of knee jerk reaction I'm arguing against. My point is that there are bigger threats to our safety that don't get as much attention because they aren't seasonal but daily. I'm asking for some perspective, that's all.

Laws already exist against anti-social behaviour. They exist against assault on other citizens, whether intentional or not. They exist in not allowing children to buy fireworks - but some adult shop owners still sell them to kids, and some adults will buy them on behalf of kids. Thinking more about it, the only knew law on that list with any real use is the on-the-spot fine for children carrying fireworks. But again this is useless unless their are bobbies on the street to catch them. Increasing the age to sell them to 18 makes sense, but again, unless someone is checking up on the store owners this is meaningless. Toughening up the license required to sell them could be helpful, but again is only useful if someone follows this up to check the retailer is following the rules.

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by Jayjay
Don't worry, I don't think I've ever taken anything you've written as an attack. Or is that an error on my part?

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it was mostly meant in general but the rest for you my words rarely translate well on argumentative or thoughtworthy topics i also didnt wanna offend any parents either, it's so easy for an innocent word or line to be misconstrued and i didnt want it happening here.

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by Jayjay
You dial 999. You get an ansafone message. You leave a message.

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Niggley off topic point, but an important thing that needs correcting. You NEVER get an ansafone message when you dial 999. Your call is answered by a central operator almost imediately and then they connect you to the emergency service you requre. It may take a few minutes to get through to the actual service you require (especially if you need an ambulance in London), but if it takes more than 2 minutes then there are procedures in place that speed up the response from there.

999 is an emergancy number and shouldn't be used for something like a firework incident where - as Jayjay pointed out the kids will have scarpered almost straightaway and there is little chance of them being caught. If you want to involve the police then you should call your local police station number - where you probably will get an ansafone message

(Edited by Sydney 14/11/2003 09:52)

Whilst down in kent last weekend, the local kids/yobs/darlings *delete as applicable* had decided that when they lit a firework and left it in a phone box it made all pretty patterns and loud noises and a sparkling glass effect of the ground, I think my mum told me that almost all the local phoneboxes were now unusable.

Must admit that the fireworks seem to have all dies down here now finally, but on another totaly off topic note I had my first carol singers this week!!!!

Ahh, now Carol singers definitely should be banned! For an absolute minimum of 52 weeks a year!