I really dont pay attention to it, therefore have no opinion, therefore dont really care

The west will not intervene because any criticism of Israel is instantly dismissed as Anti-Semitism. It has become almost impossible for anyone to criticise the actions of Israel and the Jews living within the country. This subject is covered well in a book by.. er... i can't remember the name now, i'll edit the post later with it.

But anyway, the author is a Jew who accuses 'american and international jewry' of creating an entire industry out of the Holocaust and how they use the Jew's percieved 'victim status' to gain international favour and avoid criticism. I'm sure i will probably take some flak for this view, but i completely agree with the author. The name Finkelstein comes to mind, but i'm not sure if it's him.

I'll check and post again later. Hope this post helps.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the innocent people who have to die around the world in many situations. But personally I haven't been following these events as in recent weeks I have learned that you need to get your own house in order before you can take on the rest of the world.

Hoom. Here's me waiting for a serious topic to turn up and Inc proposes the 'elephant in the sitting room' nonpareil, defecating on the oblivious Ethan's shag pile.

There is no understanding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, since it's obfuscated by cliches... 'Catch 22', Gordian knot', 'freedom fighter/terrorist', 'An eye for an eye'... It stems from the Holocaust, and a particularly cack-handed attempt by the United States and Britain at redressing the wrongs committed against the Jews by the Nazis in WW2, but the reputation of international jewry, whether wellfounded or not, goes back much further, obviously.

And from experience of countless threads in Independent Argument, I think that's about as far as one can usefully go, before drawing flak from at least one side of the debate, be it the holocaust deniers or the 'never forgetters'. I'd like to be wrong, though.

BTW, it was Norman G. Finkelstein, author of 'The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the
Exploitation of Jewish Suffering'.

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by Ethan
I really dont pay attention to it, therefore have no opinion, therefore dont really care

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Which is of course your right as a free thinking person in a generally liberal peaceful country.

Here are some reasons why you might care:

Yesterday 45 people died in Israel, 40 Palestinians and 5 Israelis. The Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has vowed to escalate the violence rather than search for a peaceful solution.

Since the uprising started in late 2000, over 1,000 Palestinians and 300 Israelis have died in terrorist actions, suicide bombings and military reprisals. In many instances, those who have died are not soldiers in combat, but civilians - mothers and fathers, children.

Western governments, whilst making noises about peace have not intervened since Clinton was in the White House. One of the reasons for that is they have no incentive as long as the voting population of their respective countries have no opinion and don't care.

People with nothing to lose often act in unpredictable ways. If the events of the last 7 months have shown anything, it is that the world is a smaller place than it once appeared, and that the politics of seemingly insignificant countries can spill over into the lives of anyone.

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by Incandenza
Here are some reasons why you might care:

Yesterday 45 people died in Israel, 40 Palestinians and 5 Israelis. The Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has vowed to escalate the violence rather than search for a peaceful solution.

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Wow Thats made me really angry, as all we want is a peaceful world, and you get people like this who ruin it all.

Also, you might care because anyone could be in Israel in the moment, from a family friend, or someone who you wasn't aware that was there. I know I have.......

And the ironic thing, is that they are saying they are fighting for their God and it's what their God wants, except NOWHERE in these two religions does it say that killing anyone is right by God. They say that their fighting for their religion but they cannot even call themselves followers to that relgion in my opinion if they do something like this. ok, Said my bit

I care that people die, sure its not pretty, but at the same time, I'll say that as a country we need to sort a lot of things out at the same time before worrying about other countries...

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by Ethan
I'll say that as a country we need to sort a lot of things out at the same time before worrying about other countries...

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I agree with this to an extent, but i also believe every country has a responsibility to participate in international relations and the like.

I'm a huge believe in internationalism, which is one of the reasons why i support the single European currency and a more integrated Europe. But that's a whole other story.

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by Ethan
I care that people die, sure its not pretty, but at the same time, I'll say that as a country we need to sort a lot of things out at the same time before worrying about other countries...

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Hmm. I can't help thinking that if you read the newspapers or watch the news to find out what's happening in this country, you would probably, if only inadvertantly, have become somewhat aware of the situation in Israel, but anyway... There is indeed a lot that could be sorted out in this country, but I don't think that precludes being concerned with events elsewhere, particularly when, as Incandenza sort of pointed out, they could have more impact on us than we realise.

I've refrained from posting on the actual topic so far. I do have opinions, quite strong ones actually, but am also aware that my knowledge of the situation is somewhat limited, and hence suffer from a similar confusion as Inc as to why the west is so reluctant to intervene.

On a related note, a story I came across:
www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-030902bombs.story

About the US drawing up new plans for circumstances under which they might use nuclear weapons. Among them, an Arab/Israeli conflict.

(Edited by In a State of Dan 11/03/2002 00:35)

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by In a State of Dan
(quotes)About the US drawing up new plans for circumstances under which they might use nuclear weapons. Among them, an Arab/Israeli conflict.

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Oh man...Another reason for us in America to re-elect Gore. Why does that damn Bush have to be such a hawk?

I doubt your question can be answered in a thread such as this, Inc., and I further doubt that was your intention. But maybe a halfway decent list of suggested reading might accrue?

David Shipler, a New York Times reporter, wrote an excellent book called "Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land" about 15 years ago. Not exclusively about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but a good background to the issues.

Shipler writes: "Whatever happens in war or diplomacy, whatever territory is won or lost, whatever accommodations or compromises are finally made, the future guarantees that Arabs and Jews will remain clost neighbors in this weary land, entangled in each other's fears. They will not escape from one another. They will not find peace in treaties, or in victories. They will find it, if at all, by looking into each other's eyes."

Unfortunately, none of us should hold our breath.

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by In a State of Dan
(quotes)

Hmm. I can't help thinking that if you read the newspapers or watch the news to find out what's happening in this country, you would probably, if only inadvertantly, have become somewhat aware of the situation in Israel, but anyway...

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I watch the news, yes. But if it is anything along the lines of, this, the whole Osama Bin-Laden saga etc, then 9 times out of 10 I'll turn it over Home news, I'm a bit more tolerant with but only to a certain degree.

In My Opinion
Contrary to popular belief, The US and UK are not the governing commitee or police for the rest of the world.I personally think that we spend far too much on overseas 'action' and would be better sorting out our own crumbling industries etc. I don't agree with interfering with religous nations 'Holy' wars.The innocents on both sides are celebrating the deaths in the others country,so are as bad as each other.
Sometimes nieghbours are a pain in the R's..they start off borrowing a cup of sugar,next thing you know they've nipped off with your Army and haven't bought it back!

Arguably, the UN *is* the governing committee or police for
the rest of the world.

Interestingly, last night the UN secretary-general, Kofi Annan, accused Israel of "illegal occupation" of Palestinian land.

The UN has issued a resolution endorsing a Palestinian state and called for an immediate ceasefire in the escalating conflict.

Will be interesting to see the Israeli reaction to this perspective on their occupation.

I can tell you now what the Israeli reaction to the UN will be - they will completely ignore it. The UN has had resolutions condemning illegal Israeli occupation of land in force since 1967, and they haven't had any effect so far.

The UN cannot be an effective police force against powerful nations because it has no means of projecting its own power, it relies on its members. The only force that could have an effect on Israel is possibly the USA, but don't see that happening.

There is absolutely nothing that needs addressing in this country that is as pressing as a resolution to the Palestine - Israel problem. If your train's late, or someone's been made redundant due to economic slow down, or if Tony Blair is taking back handers from Rupert Murdoch himself, this is nothing compared to the number of people dying unnecessarily in the middle-east. How close someone was born, or lives, to where I was born or now live does not effect the value of that life. Not to me at least.

And let's face it, the current state of affairs in the middle-east can be blamed, to quite a large degree, on us, the British. We, in part, created the problem. Shouldn't we be active in solving it?

Why does the west not intervene in the conflict? We do. We sell arms to the Israeli government, provide loans for the purchase of those arms, and will even send in our own military to support the Israeli state if needed.

Why doesn't the western public demand that our governments take an active role in brokering a permanent peace? Many reasons. It's not high up a politician’s list because, to be fair, Joe Public doesn't give a damn. They may be shocked or outraged, but some of the posts above are not atypical. Ask what the average Brit wants more, Peace in the Middle-East or More Money for the NHS/Lower Taxes and they'll choose the latter. Charity starts at home. And other inane homilies apply. There's no real pay-off for your demagoguing politician.

Then there's the accusation of racism/anti-semitism if you're seen to take one side or the other.

Then there's US foreign policy, which is pretty much de facto western foreign policy. Every US government post WWII has considered it essential that they have a friendly nation in the middle-east. This is why the west, and the US in particular, has gone out of its way to court Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, despite any human rights abuses by these states. Turkey is similar, but is complicated by its presence in Europe and it's history with the other Balkan states. However, none of them are as indebted, or linked, to the west, as Israel is. As long as there is Israel the west has an effective presence in the region.

Finally, I agree with Avenger that the UN resolution will be filed with the rest in the 'out' tray. Nothing the UN does has any bite unless the US approves. And the US will do nothing against Israel. It will sanction countries despite how many innocents die from starvation or lack of available medicine. It will carpet bomb countries, but with 'intelligent missiles', despite how ever many innocents are killed or left homeless. It will use the UN to justify these actions, but it will never once accept the resolutions standing against Israel. And people wonder why the UN is considered a joke.

For the record. I agree with those who believe that the establishment of Israel was an illegal, and bloody, act of invasion. I'm not anti-semitic, or a racist of any kind. And I hate all religions that preach war with equal distaste (and the Torah, Qur'an and Bible all do that). However, Israel is a fact of life now, with more than a couple of generations that have lived their entire lives now in that region. It strikes me that the only solution to the conflict is to get both sides to accept that the other has a right to exist and to draw up plans for the establishment of two independent states. Or better yet, one secular nation where your skin colour and religion (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. But as hard as the first solution would be to achieve, the second looks down right impossible.

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by Jayjay
There is absolutely nothing that needs addressing in this country that is as pressing as a resolution to the Palestine - Israel problem.

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I'd disagree with you on that one. I think a lot of people would like our Health System to be sorted first and foremost. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I'm sure a parent, husband, wife, brother or sister could care less about the Middle East as their loved one is taxied all over the country in searh of a hospital that can perform a life saving operation or find a much needed bed.

Once that's taken care of, then perhaps concerns might start to focus elsewhere. And I'm not trying to downplay the awfulness of what is happening in the Middle East.

Anyway, I don't want to encourage this discussion going off topic.

(Edited by Whistler 13/03/2002 19:20)

My view is that the land belongs to the jews. it's biblical country and was populated by jews before the arabs came and threw them out.

My understand comes mainly from reading various books (some fiction, some fact) but my facts may wrong. dont quite me or flame me, it's just my opinion.

I don't believe the fact that the Jews originated in the middle east should make any difference. I understand the Jews believe in the right of return, but i don't see why they cannot live in a secular country where race, religion etc make no different.

I find it difficult to understand why they all have such a connection to one particular area of land.