Oh, good god...

I want to know the legal implications of this. It's a fundamental legal principal in this country that all citizens are equal before the law. There's no obligation for me to swear an oath to the Queen, democracy, Old King Cole or anyone else to be a UK citizen. Legally binding oaths are a serious matter: you can be jailed for perjuring an oath taken in court. Does taking this oath prevent naturalised citizens from campaigning for a republic or joining an Anarchist group? Does it impose restrictions on their behaviour different to those expected of other citizens?

If that's the case it literally makes immigrants second class citizens. If it isn't, this is a meaningless farce. Loyalty that's coerced isn't worth the words it's spoken in and this oath ridicules the democratic ideals it supposedly triumphs.

Naturalized American citizens have to do something like that--take some sort of oath pledging loyalty to the US and renouncing loyalty to their former country. I agree that it is peculiar. I just never thought about it before. Why is the UK requiring that now, if it was never required before?

On the subject of pledges, when I was in elementary school up through high school, I remember that every student (in the whole country) had to stand up at the start of the school day, face a flag in front of the class, put his/her hand over his/her heart, and say, "The Pledge of Allegiance" to the US. None of us knew what it meant or cared. We just said it because the teachers made us say it. But someone sued over it, and by the time I got to high school, it became illegal to make anyone say that pledge.

So the deal became, everyone would still stand up at that time. The teacher would still lead the class in saying the the pledge, but any student who didn't want to say it didn't have to say it. So, of course, that allowed kids who didn't say it to become the object of scorn and ridicule by all the other kids who did say it--or even the teacher. I was one of the kids who refused to say it once I had an out. I just thought it was stupid. And I really didn't give a crap what anyone thought about it. But I think that stuff still goes on in classrooms today.

Many other countries have something similar, along with certain requirements, such as knowing about the country and its history, being able to communicate in the language etc etc, basically ensuring that the person will become a useful member of society.

As far as I know it has always been a requirement to swear an oath when becoming a naturalised UK citizen, my dad certainly had to in the early 70's (despite the fact that he had come over here when he was 3 in the late 40's), and I don't see anything wrong with it.

I can see the idea of this, but I think the oath should be to the country not the Queen. Besides the fact it allows these people to be anti-royalists with fear of being jailed for purjury it avoids the nasty legal ramifications of how much worth the oath is when the Queen dies.

To be pedantic for a moment - when one swears allegiance to "The Queen", one swears allegiance to her public body (ie the Monarchy as an institution, and "The queen/king" as a concept) rather than to her personally...
On a me point - where do I opt out? I don't think I'm British, and I personally owe no allegiance to the queen of what is to me personally, another country,.....

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by Byron
I want to know the legal implications of this. It's a fundamental legal principal in this country that all citizens are equal before the law. There's no obligation for me to swear an oath to the Queen, democracy, Old King Cole or anyone else to be a UK citizen.

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I think you'll find it doesn't apply to people born in the UK, just those from abroad wanting citizenship.

Then you should have the same rights as any person born in the UK.

It's supposed to be like the US citisenship where you pledge allegence to the USA.

I have no problem with this. in 5 yrs when i can apply to become a spanish citizen i will submit to ANYTHING they want! i will have to learn spanish, (as the press says, even though i am severly dyslexic), fine, hard but i'll do it. i'll have to prove income, fine, i am perfectly willing. i will have to pay tax and social security. whats the problem there?

I have to take a test here, it's about time people in the UK did too! And i speak as an EU citizen emigraing to another EU country.

If i can do it they can.

PS, NIE No. (social security No.) cost 30 euros, residencia 60, registering at the health center 30 euros, and registering at the Town Hall 30 euros. when i change my driving licence to Spanish it'll cost 90 euros. do you hear me complaining?

NO WHY? because i want to be here. people who live in the UK want to be there too, they can afford £68!


(Edited by Cat 05/02/2004 23:51)

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by Cat
Then you should have the same rights as any person born in the UK.

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Yes, people should have the same rights as any person born in the UK. However, if people from abroad who emigrate to the UK have to swear an oath of allegiance, and people born here don't, it creates a distinction between the two.

A distinction that essentially infers that because they come from somewhere else, we have to force them to be loyal to us, or kick them out.

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by Cat
I have no problem with this. in 5 yrs when i can apply to become a spanish citizen i will submit to ANYTHING they want! i will have to learn spanish, (as the press says, even though i am severly dyslexic), fine, hard but i'll do it. i'll have to prove income, fine, i am perfectly willing. i will have to pay tax and social security. whats the problem there?

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You will submit to anything? You're more trusting than I am then. Being able to speak the language is one thing, but making someone swear allegiance, an allegiance which is unnecessary and meaningless in the long term anyway, because people will do it just to get in and not really mean it, is worthless.

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by Cat
NO WHY? because i want to be here. people who live in the UK want to be there too, they can afford £68!

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A lot of the people moving to the UK are moving to escape conditions where they are not earning enough to live comfortably, so no, many people cannot afford £68. You may live in very comfortable circumstances and not think much of that amount, but to many people £68 is a lot of money.



(Edited by Maffrew 06/02/2004 11:35)

You're all missing the point actually, this is only about a ceremony, if you are naturalised, you have to swear the oath anyway, in written form and witnessed by the usual responsible person (Dentist, Doctor, Lawyer, etc etc).

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by Stoo
You're all missing the point actually, this is only about a ceremony, if you are naturalised, you have to swear the oath anyway, in written form and witnessed by the usual responsible person (Dentist, Doctor, Lawyer, etc etc).

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Maybe, but what we're saying is that you shouldn't have to.

It's pointless debating it because it's been defacto for many years anyway..

I don't really like the idea of swearing allegence to one person (The Queen), but realistically there is nothing that can be done about it, and it's only arguing over semantics anyway. I very much doubt anyone will be turfed out because they don't stick to their allegence to The Queen personally, it's only a symbol of the nation