!!!!!!!!!!


And even worse, it was at a Chelsea player!

I was absoluitely disgusted when i read about this today... Its astounding that people can use language like that so casually in this day and age. Its a word I've NEVER used and can't see my self using its so offensive.

I have a little bit of a problem with this.

I have never used the word in question and if someone used it in a conversation with me I would be shocked. My initial reaction was much like Sydney's.

However, it strikes me a potentially hypocritical that we react like this to a description of someone's skin colour, when we would not necesarily in other cases.

If a similar comment were made by a black commentator referring to a white player, would the outcome have been the same - maybe, but I'm not sure.

If the player had been openly gay and the comment centred on that, would the outcome have been the same? - again it's possible, but I'm not sure it's so clearcut.

If the comment had centred on the fact that the player was fat, or had ginger hair, would the outcome have been the same? - certainly not.

Why is it that some skin colours are much more taboo to use as pejorative descriptions than other skin colours or other physical features? Is it because there has been historically and exists now more prejudice (at least in the Western world) based on those skin colours and we therefore don't wish to associate ourselves with this actual discrimination that we see. And will it be a sign that we have moved on as a society when someone can use words denoting skin colour as adjectives in the same way as people commonly use 'fat', 'blond', etc?

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by Byron
I'm saddened, if not shocked, that racist language this vile is still used so casually...

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I'm not at all shocked, sad as that is. I think we've come to a point where people at least realize it's not acceptable language to use in public, whereas years ago, people said that word outright and weren't the least bit embarrassed or bothered by what they said. But I still believe many people harbor those racist feelings and use that type of language casually when they're among friends, family, coworkers with whom they feel they can say these things without being criticized. You and I may not use that word, or have friends who do, but I think it's more common than we'd like to believe.

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by Avenger
And will it be a sign that we have moved on as a society when someone can use words denoting skin colour as adjectives in the same way as people commonly use 'fat', 'blond', etc?

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To be fair, though, ol' Ron didn't say black.. whatever. He used the N word, which is not an adjective, it's just foul

(Edited by Kate 22/04/2004 11:50)

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by Kate
(quotes)
To be fair, though, ol' Ron didn't say black.. whatever. He used the N word, which is not an adjective, it's just foul

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I personally dont use the word nor like it, but its intresting that its perfectly acceptable for rap artists to use in their songs.

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by JtB
but its intresting that its perfectly acceptable for rap artists to use in their songs.

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I have a black friend (don't we all have black/ gay/ Jewish whatever friends when there's a subject like this ) who says that he can use the N word when talking about himself or his friends but to hear a white person say it is insulting.

It's a whole "reclaiming" thing... Similar to gay people's use of the term "queer". There's also alot to be said for the tone and context. In this case it came over as an insult. Not helped by allegedly referring to Claudio Ranieri as a "wop" in a rant peppered with the F word. Nice to see football attracting towering intellects, as ever.

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by Teresa
(quotes)
I have a black friend (don't we all have black/ gay/ Jewish whatever friends when there's a subject like this ) who says that he can use the N word when talking about himself or his friends but to hear a white person say it is insulting.

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I find that it is just as racist to say that a black person can say something but a white person cant.

The reclaiming arguement doesnt hold much water for me and is encouraging the continued use of these words.

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by JtB
(quotes)

I find that it is just as racist to say that a black person can say something but a white person cant.

The reclaiming arguement doesnt hold much water for me and is encouraging the continued use of these words.

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To quote Chris Rock: "It's okay for me to say it, it's not okay for you to say it." A person who's the intended target of an abusive term subverting it for their own ends is, to my mind, acceptable. As, though you have to be a darn sight more careful, is any person. The word "nigger" is just that, a word: it's the intent that does harm, and that's decided by how it's delivered, and who's delivering it.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as Lenny Bruce's infamous sketch, but he had the right idea. Will it perperutate the words? Sadly, I don't think they're going anywhere. Drive them underground and never speak their name, and you invest them with power: gut and subvert them, and you hurt the people who want to use them against you.

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by Avenger
I have a little bit of a problem with this.

I have never used the word in question and if someone used it in a conversation with me I would be shocked. My initial reaction was much like Sydney's.

However, it strikes me a potentially hypocritical that we react like this to a description of someone's skin colour, when we would not necesarily in other cases.

If a similar comment were made by a black commentator referring to a white player, would the outcome have been the same - maybe, but I'm not sure.

If the player had been openly gay and the comment centred on that, would the outcome have been the same? - again it's possible, but I'm not sure it's so clearcut.

If the comment had centred on the fact that the player was fat, or had ginger hair, would the outcome have been the same? - certainly not.

Why is it that some skin colours are much more taboo to use as pejorative descriptions than other skin colours or other physical features? Is it because there has been historically and exists now more prejudice (at least in the Western world) based on those skin colours and we therefore don't wish to associate ourselves with this actual discrimination that we see. And will it be a sign that we have moved on as a society when someone can use words denoting skin colour as adjectives in the same way as people commonly use 'fat', 'blond', etc?

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You're right, any prejudice is bad, but some do a lot more damage than others. There didn't used to be signs saying "No dogs, no Irish, no lardies", neither did a Tory candidate stand in the 1964 Sedgewick by-election with the slogan "If you want a ginga for a neighbour, vote Labour". Which doesn't make one sort right, just not as vile as the other. I don't think it's hypocritical, but harm assessment.

If it had been a commentator of Afro-Carribean origin who called a white player an effing lazy cracker, I'd like to think he wouldn't be around either. If Atkinson had used homophobic abuse he should have been sacked, but I'm not sure he would have been, since some prejudices are as damaging as racism, but aren't recognised as such.

MEH!
Me personally I use it all the time but that's because I can.

(Edited by pimpdaddy 22/04/2004 22:25)

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by Byron
The word "nigger" is just that, a word: it's the intent that does harm, and that's decided by how it's delivered, and who's delivering it.

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This statement I agree with completely. The only problem I see here is that it's hard to determine what exactly the intent was. Especially when most of us have only the newspaper report to go on. It's always dificult to determine someone's meaning through the written word (which has been the cause of some arguments on this board).

Have you ever seen an enthusiastic football fan watching a match? (by the way, that's not aimed at you Byron, just a general *you* ) They get highly emotional and start screaming at the players on the TV. They shout, they swear, they hurl abuse, they cast aspersions on the parentage of the referee. Maybe (maybe... although I'm not totally convinced) most people don't use racial slurs, but still they say a lot of offensive things that they don't really mean, but in the heat of the moment it helps them to relieve their frustrations. Ron Atkinson was just unlucky to have been caught using that one particular word. It doesn't necessarily mean he's secretly a member of the National Front.

Agreed a lot more is being made out of this than neccessary.

Given that he has apologised and that he has a history of working with football players of all races I think that this may have been a just a slip of the tongue, we have all said things we regret so lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

I hate that word, he shouldn't have said it wether he thought the mics could pick him up or not it doesn't make a difference! I dont like the whole "It's okay for me to say it, it's not okay for you to say it" thing and i also dont like that prejudice goes alot of ways but alot of the time its overlooked. x

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by Avenger
I have a little bit of a problem with this.

I have never used the word in question and if someone used it in a conversation with me I would be shocked. My initial reaction was much like Sydney's.

However, it strikes me a potentially hypocritical that we react like this to a description of someone's skin colour, when we would not necesarily in other cases.

If a similar comment were made by a black commentator referring to a white player, would the outcome have been the same - maybe, but I'm not sure.

If the player had been openly gay and the comment centred on that, would the outcome have been the same? - again it's possible, but I'm not sure it's so clearcut.

If the comment had centred on the fact that the player was fat, or had ginger hair, would the outcome have been the same? - certainly not.

Why is it that some skin colours are much more taboo to use as pejorative descriptions than other skin colours or other physical features?

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I'm guessing it's because few people have ever been regarded as suitable to keep as slaves purely because of their hair colour, or sexual inclination. Whatever the justification for slavery among Africans, or in ancient Rome, whites who kept black slaves based their situation on the supposed inferiority of the 'negro'. That's why any white person (and lightskinned black, occasionally) gets in trouble for using the 'N' word.

The counterargument is that blacks should have gotten over all this old history by now, but it's not that old, and dodgy geneticists still want to portray Africans as having smaller brain pans, etc, so people aren't about to start being more relaxed about this issue.

It's interesting to note that many newspapers reporduced Atkinson's racism as a series of asterisks: to paraphrase Kurtz, "Papers that demand gypsies are kept out can't print 'nigger' because its racist."