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by Havoc
15 and 18 certificates are baaaddd, we need 15a and 18a. Combining that with your ID cards it would allow your parents to put a note on the card saying that they give permission for you to watch Xa certificated films

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God no i dont want noisey brats in films I like to watch in peace

Why are they bad? Every other generation had to live with it. It just makes everything a fuzzy issue. At least with 15 and 18 certificates you know where you stand. If you're not old enough to get in, tough. One day you will be.

Well here's the key. If people (both on here and elsewhere) don't like this or other policies, vote them out. That's what democracy is all about.

Bet you don't

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by JtB
Really why dont you go by amnesty international and see how many people 'dissapear' from various countrys in the world due to their political beliefs . Information against individuals is misused all the time, the goverment lies and decieves us all the time should we trust them no.

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Are you trying to validate the point you quoted??

"The Government" cannot and should not be judged by the actions of their predecessors nor their counterparts in other countries. We're talking about an ID card, not microchipping.

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by Havoc
15 and 18 certificates are baaaddd, we need 15a and 18a. Combining that with your ID cards it would allow your parents to put a note on the card saying that they give permission for you to watch Xa certificated films

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That's what video stores are for. Just wait 6 months.

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by Yvonne
That's what video stores are for. Just wait 6 months.

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So says the girl who downloads movies before they're released. I remember a quote from the journals where you said something about 'can't wait 6 months for them to be released over here'.......

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by Yvonne
(quotes)
Are you trying to validate the point you quoted??

"The Government" cannot and should not be judged by the actions of their predecessors nor their counterparts in other countries. We're talking about an ID card, not microchipping.

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"If we dont learn from historys mistakes then we are doomed to repeat them"

The ID cards contain microchips so it aint that far and if you say well you dont have to carry them all the time then their aint a lot of point in them.

I find it scary that how much trust there is in a goverment that doesnt even trust its own electorate.

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by Havoc
15 and 18 certificates are baaaddd, we need 15a and 18a. Combining that with your ID cards it would allow your parents to put a note on the card saying that they give permission for you to watch Xa certificated films

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I can't remember the last film I watched at the cinema but it had a 12a rating and the wonderful children in front of us sat yapping through most of it or pratting about on mobile phones. Not that some groups of adults are any better.

We didn't have the "A" ratings 15 years ago when I was waiting to turn 15 so I went without for cinema releases. I think this generation are luckily than most and with rentals coming out a lot quicker you've still got a better chance of seeing them if your family don't mind renting them as parental guidance.

ID cards to me aren't about small law breaking habits like underage drinking/films etc (although it may lesson this I guess) But where things like burglaries, rapes, murders occur - having a set of suspects quicker, rather than none at all

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by Yvonne
"The Government" cannot and should not be judged by the actions of their predecessors nor their counterparts in other countries.

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So exactly what criteria are we supposed to use to judge how this or future governments might use any powers they are given?

Placing blind trust in our leaders, or thinking that we're somehow different and those kinds of things could never happen here, isn't living in the real world any more than fantasising paranoid conspiracy theories is.

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by In a State of Dan
Placing blind trust in our leaders, or thinking that we're somehow different and those kinds of things could never happen here, isn't living in the real world any more than fantasising paranoid conspiracy theories is.

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That statement implies there's no middle ground. You either think all leaders can't be trusted with anything, or you place blind trust in all of them.

I don't have total faith in our leaders, but I also think that just because other countries have failed, or abused their powers in the past it doesn't necessarily mean that ours will. Of course, there are lessons to be learned, but to dismiss something simply because others have abused their power, and to tarnish all leaders with the same brush as a result of it, is churlish I feel.


And in respomse to JTB - There's nothing wrong with a government not trusting an electorate.

Too many people treat politics like football, and support the same party through the good times and the bad (I'm not accusing anyone on here of this, by the way). They don't take any notice of policies. That's how the likes of Derek Hatton can get into power and destroy a city. Too many people just tick a box without making an educated decision. That's why I don't trust the electorate!

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by Teresa
So says the girl who downloads movies before they're released. I remember a quote from the journals where you said something about 'can't wait 6 months for them to be released over here'.......

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I didn't say I was above breaking the law, simply that if an avenue was closed (ie. not watching movies at the cinema because they're not old enough) there would be an alternative (ie. wait) When I was a kid, it annoyed me that I had to wait for something so daft, but in a world where most things are at our fingertips, perhaps excersising a little patience is a good thing (no, this doesn't mean I'll leave the downloads alone )

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by JtB
The ID cards contain microchips so it aint that far and if you say well you dont have to carry them all the time then their aint a lot of point in them.

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I never say anything without appropriate punctuation (joking!) In any case, there's a large difference between carrying a card with a microchip in it and having one inserted under your skin.

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by In a State of Dan
So exactly what criteria are we supposed to use to judge how this or future governments might use any powers they are given?

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It may be naive, but I believe the proof is in the pudding. You can hypothesise till the cows come home, but let's not resign the country to the SciFi fantasies just yet. We'll have flying cars and replicators before we have to scan an ID card to get into the pub.

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by In a State of Dan
Placing blind trust in our leaders, or thinking that we're somehow different and those kinds of things could never happen here, isn't living in the real world any more than fantasising paranoid conspiracy theories is.

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I also believe that I didn't say I'd placed "blind trust" in anything or anyone, I merely said that previous actions of OTHER PEOPLE in other times were not an indication of how any future government may act.
To assume that any government will make all the same mistakes as the old one is to suggest that people other than yourself are incapable of learning from the past. It also suggests that as an electorate, we're incapable of choosing intelligent leaders and that's as much your fault as anyone elses

Okay some more tech info about this ID card.....

Just been doing some reading on these cards and the way they are (currently) used. At the moment the biometrical information is ONLY stored on the card itself. This means that the government actually doesn´t have anymore information than they already have (name etc). The biometrical information is not stored anywhere else except on the card. It´s stored temp on the terminal that actually compares the info on the card with the info you supply and is deleted afterwards.

So you don´t give the evil government anything more than they already have. So whats the problem there?? It´s just that it now becomes very hard (or even impossible) to fake your identity now whats so wrong about that?

Can you think of any situation where you would have to identify yourself and it would be legal & ethical to fake your identify? I can´t.

All the other cases it´s illegal or unethical to do so which can never be a reason not to have such a card.

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by Chambler
Just been doing some reading on these cards and the way they are (currently) used. At the moment the biometrical information is ONLY stored on the card itself. This means that the government actually doesn´t have anymore information than they already have (name etc). The biometrical information is not stored anywhere else except on the card. It´s stored temp on the terminal that actually compares the info on the card with the info you supply and is deleted afterwards.

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Well you have just blown the easier to catch rapists, murderers arguement out of the water, if this info is not kept on file. Also if there is no central database how do you check that someone is who they say as the card may be faked(criminals with money in this technological age probably will be able to).

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by JtB
Also if there is no central database how do you check that someone is who they say as the card may be faked(criminals with money in this technological age probably will be able to).

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Well the exact same applies to a normal passport / drivers license etc..... Only this is a lot harder to fake as it takes a lot more technology and knowhow to forge than a "normal passport". With the old passport you can just replace the photo and nobody would know but now you would also have to change all the biometrical information.... bit trickier than glueing in a new picture

And it does still help with finding criminals because it's way harder to hide behind fake id to avoid the police But not as helpful as a central database with the information fully available to the police etc but that would be a major privacy breach Which I think you where uhmm against

(Edited by Chambler 04/05/2004 16:27)

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by Chambler
(quotes)
Well the exact same applies to a normal passport / drivers license etc.....

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Driving licence and Passport photos are kept on a database, which can be checked aginst if the police or passport agencys have suspicions.

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by Chambler
(quotes)
And it does still help with finding criminals because it's way harder to hide behind fake id to avoid the police But not as helpful as a central database with the information fully available to the police etc but that would be a major privacy breach Which I think you where uhmm against

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I am against it I was just pointing out that this information without a central database is pointless and it has nothing to check against.

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by Yvonne
Sorry, but am I the only one who thinks 15 certificates are there for a reason?? Using the argument "it'll stop us breaking the law" as amunition against ID cards borders on ridiculous, you may aswell complain that it'd make your purse bulge unattractively.

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Oh come on are you seriously trying to tell me that you never went into a 15 before you were 15, never drank alcohol before you were 18 or never did some other age limited thing before you reached that age?

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by Acker
Oh come on are you seriously trying to tell me that you never went into a 15 before you were 15, never drank alcohol before you were 18 or never did some other age limited thing before you reached that age?

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*sigh*

Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

As a matter of fact, I didn't go to 15s or 18s before I was of age, because I was smart enough to realise that if I waited for the rental I didn't have to pay for it myself.

I also didn't BUY alcohol before I was 18 and as the cards could prevent the sale of such products to underage kids and not the consumption, I don't think it really matters whether or not I raided my parent's drinks cabinet

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by Yvonne
Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

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But I'm not. I was asking you a question. And 'stop trying' what do you mean by that? This is the first time I've even replied to you, so if you interpreted it as 'putting words in your mouth', it was just the one time, so I just 'tried' rather than am 'trying'.

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by Yvonne
As a matter of fact, I didn't go to 15s or 18s before I was of age, because I was smart enough to realise that if I waited for the rental I didn't have to pay for it myself.

I also didn't BUY alcohol before I was 18 and as the cards could prevent the sale of such products to underage kids and not the consumption, I don't think it really matters whether or not I raided my parent's drinks cabinet

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And it does matter. You still did it. Why should you get to experience those things when the future generation may not?

Sorry, I'm not trying to argue, I just don't get how you can say that you think 15 certificates are there for a reason, yet you still went against them? It's almost hypocrtical.

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by Acker
And it does matter. You still did it. Why should you get to experience those things when the future generation may not?

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And even if we get ID cards kids are still gonna do it. You don't need ID for your older friends/ parents to rent a 15 cert DVD for you to watch at home, same as you don't need ID to (as Yvonne put it) raid your parents drink cabinet. Yvonne didn't go to the cinema underage and she didn't buy alcohol underage either. Yeah she's a freak but that's why I <3 her

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by Teresa
(quotes)

And even if we get ID cards kids are still gonna do it. You don't need ID for your older friends/ parents to rent a 15 cert DVD for you to watch at home, same as you don't need ID to (as Yvonne put it) raid your parents drink cabinet. Yvonne didn't go to the cinema underage and she didn't buy alcohol underage either. Yeah she's a freak but that's why I <3 her

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i was the same no films til i was the right age, no clubs/alcohol til i was legal, didnt get my first tat til i was 18.
the certificates ARE there for a reason the only problem is what might be terrifying for a 12 year old might be nothing to a 16 year old or vice-versa.
i was desensitized of scary films when a bored teenager once pinned me to a sofa and made me watch a few nightmare on elm street films when i was 8 for the sheer fun of it. soon i was watching all the horrors at home [if i could convince my mum i could handle it lol] when my brother got them out, but young children watching films too old for them is just deemed v.irresponsible not illegal (same as alcohol i've been told). but, of course, can still get the parentals into big trouble if picked up on by social services.

(Edited by bipolar 04/05/2004 23:39)

I never went to see a 15 rated film in the cinema before I was 15, and the only reason I saw an 18 in the cinema when I was underage (Young Guns) was because I was working it a month before my 18th birthday as an usherette when we had to sit in the theatre to keep an eye on the audience (something that isn't done in these bigger screen places nowadays) I did however witness many films at home with parental guidance, otherwise I wouldn't have seen the likes of Rocky Horror at 13/14ish

Who says that the national ID card will stop underage drinkers etc anyway? There have always been some kind of ID knocking around to prove your age, BUT I've always understood that these were only asked for IF an alcohol shop or similar requirement actually thought a person LOOKED underage.

I recall a lot of people at college who were still being asked for ID when they were 19/20/21 because they had younger looking faces. I remember one occassion where I was out with a 25 year old and I was 18 and she got asked for ID but I didn't - its the luck of the draw.

Many teenagers that I've seen about in this generation look 5-10 years older than they did.

(Edited by Samphirette 04/05/2004 23:48)