Ok ...

I think that what happened in that case is disgusting, it to me seems totally wrong that a "child" can be given an abortion pill without the knowledge of her parents, I am assuming from reading it that we are not talking about the morning after pill here? Not only that but the school lied to the parents about where their child was.

My main reasoning behind this is what if something went wrong? What if the girl in question had had a reaction to the drugs? Without the parents knowing what she had taken and being able to relay this to hospital staff if she had become seriously ill this girl could have died (ok extreme and maybe rare but none the less a possibility)

Has this country gone crazy? In one hand they want to fine/lock up and hold parents responsible if their child doesn't attend school, and now on the other hand they our telling us it is not our responsibility if our child makes a life or death decision that can change their life dramatically, either we have a responsibility for our children or we don't surely?

What next? Will schools start taking our children to court when they have committed a crime and not tell the parents? I do understand that there are things that some children really feel they can't talk to their parents about and that they can someone else but something as life changing for a child as an abortion should not be left up to schools to decide whether a child should or shouldn't have without some consultation with the parents surely?

I was about to type my views but saw Sanges post. It's quicker for me just to type 'Ditto'

Im sick of hearing of this story to be honest its yet more of the blame someone else culture we have.

Surely the Mother instead of placing all the blame on the school be asking herself why her daughter felt she couldn't talk to her and also why she was having underage sex.

Yes the school are partially to blame but they were not breaking the law.

I don't know what it's like to be a mother, but I really think it ought to be up to the girl to tell her parents - not the school. You're probably talking to the school as a last resort anyway, but if a girl knows the school has to tell her parents, she's far less likely to seek help - causing far more problems. Of course the school should encourage anyone to tell their parents, and it would be much better if they knew - but then maybe they should have had a more open relationship in the first place (not that this is the only reason someone might have for not telling their parents, before school, that they're pregant, but it's a likely one).

Well, like Sange, and Teresa, i am a mum and i have a daughter. Bearing in mind that currently she's only three, if she were ever to be in a situation like the teen in the article, i would be absolutely outraged and furious if this happened to me/my family. I'd want to be consulted and if the school had any sense, they would've consulted this girl's mother. I also agree with JTB's comment and wonder at the relationship between the mother and daughter in the first place to warrant the school getting involved. Maybe the relationship is bad between them or maybe the girl was just too terrified to tell her, afraid of her reaction. That's one of the worst things about a teen pregnancy (in my opinion) and probably the hardest, telling the parents. They fear the reaction when in most cases (though not all) their reaction is not as bad as they feared.

The top and bottom of it is that the mother should've been consulted before the action was taken.

(Edited by Keenangel 13/05/2004 21:26)

I am reserving judgement on this specific case, as we really do not all have the facts here. At the moment we have one side of the story, that of the girls mother.

We don't know what the girl's relationship with her mother was, and we don't know the specifics of the advice that the girl was given, either at the school or at the hospital (I'm not particularly clued up on abortion, but I assume that there is a counselling side to the process and would be surprised if part of that for a 14 year old patient would not be to encourage her to talk to her parents if possible).

Just one point though. A lot of people seem to be focussing on the fact that the girl was advised by "the school" which I'm not sure is totally accurate. The girl was advised by a healthcare worker who she spoke to in her school. But it could equally have been at a clinic, at a teenage advice centre or at a doctor's surgery, or she could have found her own way to the hospital. I don't think the fact that it was at school has any relevance.

Well I'm a mother and I'm absolutely disgusted by what's happened.

I just hope to God that my daughter can talk to me about anything and everything when she gets older. If she were in that position I'd do my best to support whatever decision she takes.

Was very interested in watching Question Time last night (yes I must be getting un sange like in my ways to be watching it )The panel were asked how they felt about what had happened, and although they didn't feel that the law needed changing (as every case in individual) they all seem to agree that it seems a tad astounding that a 14 year old girl can go through a medical procedure without parental consent, they commented on the fact that just a year before this same mother had had to give to written consent forms for her child to have her appendicits removed.

As I said previously my main concerns are for what if something went wrong, also after the abortion there are the pieces to pick up the emotional and physical problems involved with having an abortion and at the end of the day the parents are the people that are going to have to deal/cope with these to help the child through it..... how can they possibly do that if they are unaware that she had it in the first place?

The more I think about this the more it makes me realise that yes each case is individual and yes as it stands I think the law in some aspects is the correct one, I still stick by the fact I truly believe that a child should not be going through that kind of medical procedure without the knowledge (note knowledge there and not necessarily consent) of at least one of the people whom have parental control over them

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by Avenger


Just one point though. A lot of people seem to be focussing on the fact that the girl was advised by "the school" which I'm not sure is totally accurate. The girl was advised by a healthcare worker who she spoke to in her school. But it could equally have been at a clinic, at a teenage advice centre or at a doctor's surgery, or she could have found her own way to the hospital. I don't think the fact that it was at school has any relevance.

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I think you right there after reading through it all again ...... the school however did lie to the parents when asked where their daughter was, something I feel is very very bad practise, in an emergency situation would the school still have lied to the parents?

I guess I am in two minds about this... I can only speak as a daughter, and I remember how I was back then, and thinking about how I am now, my relationship with my mother hasn't changed much - there are still things that I wouldn't dream of talking about with her. The girl was asked whether she wanted to talk to her mother about it - her response was "No, my mother would kill me". Which would have been my response. When I had an "accident" at 17ish, I went to the doctor and dealt with it on my own, no way could I talk to my mother about it (actually, thinking, I might have been 18, but I was still at school). So who should the school betray, is effectively the question at this point - they might be betraying the mother by not telling her, they might equally be betraying the daughter by telling her...
I think if I were this mother I'd be as/more upset that that was my daughter's reaction to me. For all she's been in the Daily Mail saying "I wish I'd told my mother", the fact is she didn't want to, and that she still didn't tell her mother until she found out by accident from someone else and couldn't hide it anymore...
Is a minefield, and all very sad and difficult. A thought crossed my mind the other day that this is also partly about the issue of taking responsibility for one's actions, something that happens less and less these days as far as I can see.
IMVHO.

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by Sange
The school however did lie to the parents when asked where their daughter was, something I feel is very very bad practise, in an emergency situation would the school still have lied to the parents?

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I totally disagree here.
If your daughter has such a good bound with you and feels she can talk to you about stuff........ school doesn't need to inform you now do they? As your daugher already told you. Only if the daughter feels she can't the School would give extra information but than the daughter obviously doesn't want to tell..... And possibly for a darned good reason! And it could make the situation way worse.... How is the school to judge that?!?

What I tell to a counceler or medical staff etc is strictly confidencial. If this happens within a school or anywhere else these people have to "protect" the information I have given them. Only in certain cases this trust can be broken. Thats the whole idea! And for the school to say ooh your daughter is at this and this abortion clinic etc would kinda give everything away wouldn't it? It would basically say, your daughter is pregnant and is having an abortian. Bye bye confidence....

Clearly from article her mother was certainly not pro abortian so I could see why she wouldn't tell her mum. And it wasn't as if she was handcuffed to the nurse and dragged off to the hospital. She could have gotten a second opinion talked to her mum afterwards (if she felt she could) etc.

But apparently she didn't feel she could talk to her mum. When the mum got wind of the situation she probably had a harse talk with her daughter and indoctrinated her to talk her out of it..... Thats something else than being talked into something.

Look at it this way....... How is having the baby? (not the parents!) So how has to make the decision. Forcing people to keep the baby would be come very close to slavery (as in owning that person) parents can't make that decision for their children!

Sorry but if the girl wants an abortian there is nobody how should deny her one as she will have to live with it either way! And getting the parents involved (specially if it's against the wishes of the parents) only has negative effects:
- girl gets talked into having a kid she doesn't wants by her parents because they are anti abortian
- Girl gets the abortian but this wouldn't do the relationship with her parents much good as she went in against their wishes! Majorly disappointed parents etc.

Not everyone has great parents!!

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by Chambler
(quotes)
I totally disagree here.
If your daughter has such a good bound with you and feels she can talk to you about stuff........ school doesn't need to inform you now do they? As your daugher already told you. Only if the daughter feels she can't the School would give extra information but than the daughter obviously doesn't want to tell..... And possibly for a darned good reason! And it could make the situation way worse.... How is the school to judge that?!?

What I tell to a counceler or medical staff etc is strictly confidencial. If this happens within a school or anywhere else these people have to "protect" the information I have given them. Only in certain cases this trust can be broken. Thats the whole idea! And for the school to say ooh your daughter is at this and this abortion clinic etc would kinda give everything away wouldn't it? It would basically say, your daughter is pregnant and is having an abortian. Bye bye confidence....

Clearly from article her mother was certainly not pro abortian so I could see why she wouldn't tell her mum. And it wasn't as if she was handcuffed to the nurse and dragged off to the hospital. She could have gotten a second opinion talked to her mum afterwards (if she felt she could) etc.

But apparently she didn't feel she could talk to her mum. When the mum got wind of the situation she probably had a harse talk with her daughter and indoctrinated her to talk her out of it..... Thats something else than being talked into something.

Look at it this way....... How is having the baby? (not the parents!) So how has to make the decision. Forcing people to keep the baby would be come very close to slavery (as in owning that person) parents can't make that decision for their children!

Sorry but if the girl wants an abortian there is nobody how should deny her one as she will have to live with it either way! And getting the parents involved (specially if it's against the wishes of the parents) only has negative effects:
- girl gets talked into having a kid she doesn't wants by her parents because they are anti abortian
- Girl gets the abortian but this wouldn't do the relationship with her parents much good as she went in against their wishes! Majorly disappointed parents etc.

Not everyone has great parents!!

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I had typed out a huge reply and then James deleted it, I have nothing against confidentiality, I have nothing against the school not informing the parents the child was pregnant, what I am against is a 14 year old child being given a chemical abortion which results in a miscarriage without her legal guardians knowing about it, a miscarriage isn't just a heavy period, its a very dangerous and painful thing to go through, worst case scenario, child goes home parents at work child hem rages and dies ..... that's the problem I have with this.
Not to mention the emotional needs the child will have after that the parents will never be able to help with

Yes every case is an individual one and in some cases the parents are maybe the last people to help but to have noone that knows who can be there to help and care for afterwards is just so wrong

As for the school, the school phoned the mother asking why her child wasnt in school, the mother was frantic she tried to call her daughter on her mobile and got no reply just imagine the thoughts running through that womans head, the school then call back an hour later and say oh she is here. If my kids school had done that to me I would have been up a that school in seconds and if my child wasnt there and they refused to tell me where she was I would have called the police.

You are either a responsible parent or your not, yes children have rights but you can't blame the parents for their children acting in an anti soicial way and then expect us not to be worried or informed when a dangerous medical procedure is happening to our child.

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by Chambler
Forcing people to keep the baby would be come very close to slavery (as in owning that person) parents can't make that decision for their children!

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No they can't, but did it say her mother would have forced her to keep the baby? According to the first article the girl changed her mind once she realised that her parents would have supported her but by then it was too late. Maybe if the parents had been notified (and I'm not getting all pro life here ) a baby could have been saved.

What if the pregnacy was a product of rape? Would they have not told her parents that either? What if her 'boyfriend' was several years older? He could have gone to jail for child abuse or something. WOuld her parents not have been told about that?

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by Sange
What I am against is a 14 year old child being given a chemical abortion which results in a miscarriage without her legal guardians knowing about it.
.....
Not to mention the emotional needs the child will have after that the parents will never be able to help with

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Not an ideal situation I must admit but who has the responsibility of informing who. I got some girls in my class a few years back who's family would have banished them from the family if it had every came out that she had sex before they where married (don't you just love religions :month.

We are all presuming here that telling the legal guardian would be a good thing. This isn't always the case. And to avoid these situations where you do unreparable damage you let the girl decide if she wants to tell or not. The only person who can judge the situation is the child itself. Not a social work or a doctor or a nurse at your local health clinic.

Sure that some girls are very distressed and think the worst and therefor don't go to their parents but those parents must have done something to make the girl think that she couldn't come to them.......

I don't know how it goes in the UK but after people get these kinda pills in NL the people that hand them out always suggest that they get a best friend etc or someone else they can trust to be with them just in case they get ill, bleed, panic whatever.

Aslong as there are laws to protect children from their parents (and they are still needed) you can't presume that everyone is a responsible parent and wants to do what is best of the child. Otherwise why are the laws there?!?

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No they can't, but did it say her mother would have forced her to keep the baby? According to the first article the girl changed her mind once she realised that her parents would have supported her but by then it was too late.

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She changed her mind..... according to the statement of her mother. Do we know what exactly went on behind those closed doors? Will we ever find out... most likely not. But for some reason I'm not directly willing to accept that the parents just said "Oooh yes great we'll support you in this". Also which responsible parent in their right mind would let their child have a baby at 14 if there is a 99.999% safe method to not have to if you are not "pro life"?!? It's not like it was planned and if the child would have a responsible father..... This makes me to believe that the parents didn't like both ideas but choose the in their eyes lesser evil, don't abort.

Looking at all this I don't think the law needs to be changed. As this law might work in a lot of cases but in some cases it will do so much damage!

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What if the pregnacy was a product of rape? Would they have not told her parents that either?

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If this is the case the girl needs to file a report with the local police and matters will be investigated. Than it might be appropriate for the police to inform the parents if the child doesn't. As aslong as there isn't a formal complaint for the law the rape never happend so no change in this specific law would have helped there

I have no doubt that you are responsible parents some possible a bit more responsible than other but not bad parents at all. But this means that you have to consider that "what you would want them to do in such a situation" to be made law has very big consequences on the people who aren't as lucky to have good parents. You want to punish those kids twice?!?

(Edited by Chambler 14/05/2004 15:27)

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by Chambler
(quotes)

Sure that some girls are very distressed and think the worst and therefor don't go to their parents but those parents must have done something to make the girl think that she couldn't come to them.......

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To be honest here I would say without a shadow of a doubt that the majority of children feel that something like becoming pregnant is the last thing they would tell their parents, no matter how close a relationship they had with thme this girl apparently didnt want to tell them because she said her mother would kill her.....that obviously in this case simply wasnt the case, as once her mother knew she offered her nothing but support, what I'm trying to say here is that you can't always go by how a child reacts to a situation, there are things that as a teenager I at the time thought my mum would have "killed" me over but that most normally isnt the case.

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I don't know how it goes in the UK but after people get these kinda pills in NL the people that hand them out always suggest that they get a best friend etc or someone else they can trust to be with them just in case they get ill, bleed, panic whatever.

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Ideal if the person is older and perhaps lives alone or in student accomodation etc, but that couldnt possibly work with a 14 year old child that lives at home with her mum and dad could it ?

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Aslong as there are laws to protect children from their parents (and they are still needed) you can't presume that everyone is a responsible parent and wants to do what is best of the child. Otherwise why are the laws there?!?

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I agree with you on this, as I said in my previous posts I dont feel the law needs to be changed I just feel that given the seriousness of the situation a medical prcedure should not be carried out without a legal guardians knowledge not necessarily their consent.

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by Sange
what I'm trying to say here is that you can't always go by how a child reacts to a situation, there are things that as a teenager I at the time thought my mum would have "killed" me over but that most normally isnt the case.

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No but the child is in most cases a lot more qualified to know how for example very religious parents would react. Especially when it comes to the whole honour of the "family" thing that seems to be very popular under certain minority groups. Believe me if I tell you that there are families in which girls are killed over things like this. (we had a couple of examples here in the Netherlands with certain minority groups)

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without a legal guardians knowledge not necessarily their consent.

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In those cases that wouldn't work either... Sure it's a small group of people but still if you make it law you condem those girls.

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Ideal if the person is older and perhaps lives alone or in student accomodation etc, but that couldnt possibly work with a 14 year old child that lives at home with her mum and dad could it ?

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Sleep over at a best friends.... Invent a project which requires watching a movie to write a paper over and you decide to make it a girls night. If you have had sex without your parents knowning you already showed some creativity Also in your example in which the parents where at work..... having a friend over would work. Sure it's not fool proof but it's better than nobody.

The most worrying part of that article for me (and understand I'm talking matters of degree here!) is the allegation that the girl was coerced into having the abortion. Before I came down on either side of this issue I'd want to know that proper safeguards are in place for a patient as vulnerable as this. Two doctors would have to have agree to the abortion as per the 1967 Abortion Act, but what extra steps (if any) would there be for someone so young?

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by Byron
The most worrying part of that article for me (and understand I'm talking matters of degree here!) is the allegation that the girl was coerced into having the abortion. Before I came down on either side of this issue I'd want to know that proper safeguards are in place for a patient as vulnerable as this. Two doctors would have to have agree to the abortion as per the 1967 Abortion Act, but what extra steps (if any) would there be for someone so young?

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Something nobody else has commented on, either here or in the media (as far as I am aware), is the fact that mother and daughter were initially told by the hospital that having taken only one of two pills to have an abortion, the foetus should be okay. Such simple factual errors should not be made at all, let alone where it can cause unnecessary emotional turmoil.