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by Jola

Cat..... self defence is one thing but *if* your actions lead to the death of someone by you using your knowledge to kill someone then it would still be classed as murder - woman or no woman! Causing hurt by self defence and causing death by self defence are two entirely different situations Enough said on that subject I'm out!

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I agree

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by Jola
Cat..... self defence is one thing but *if* your actions lead to the death of someone by you using your knowledge to kill someone then it would still be classed as murder - woman or no woman! Causing hurt by self defence and causing death by self defence are two entirely different situations Enough said on that subject I'm out!

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Legally yes, But morally I have no problem with a mugger getting killed in action.

The law on this matter is, in theory (those dreaded words) fairly simple: "reasonable force". The amount of force you use to defend youself must be proportionate to the danger you percieve. So if you're in genuine fear of your life you can kill someone and it'll be justifiable homicide.

Of course, the courts' definition of reasonable and yours might not tally. That's how Tony Martin got himself convicted of murder (downgraded to manslaughter on appeal). The jury decided he wasn't in fear of his life at the time because his victim was running away and he was armed with a high-powered shotgun.

Not a situation you want to get into. Follow the Monty Python advice on combat if you can: "Run away, run away!"

Sorry to hear what happened to you Alan

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by KaTiEStar
You are not suposed to be taught how to kill someone, and if thats how you see it, you should have been removed from the club.

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Well I did a few years of Judo myself when I was little (although younger might be the better word here... ). Although you are indeed not taught how to kill someone or physically harm someone it is a skill which is thought implicitly.

For example if you Judo against someone the idea is to apply techniques which are either "perfectly performed" and therefore you win or by using the same techniques make someone give up.

Although it isn't specifically thought how to break bones etc the idea however with many moves is to administer a certain amount of physical discomfort on your opponent of which they can't escape which makes them give up. To do this an extensive array of grips / moved etc is thought to students which if not applied within the right surroundings can seriously hurt someone (gently apply moves and slowly increase pressure and stop when your opponent tabs you or the mat twice etc).

Because with a lot of moves what you do is nothing else than breaking someone's arms, legs, fingers, starving them of oxygen or crushing their chestbone making breathing very hard... only you don't actually go all the way.

If you take these techniques outside of their "safe surroundings" and drop the "rules" these techniques can easily be used to harm or kill someone. So however you aren't teaching someone to kill someone YOU ARE showing them how it can be done.

And this does add up nicely with the original ideas of some martial arts - Farmers who where not allowed to carry weapons needed to defend themselves against attacks and also weren't allowed to learn attack moves.

If you look at some forms of martial arts which very nice pre-studied moves / blocks etc which in that setting almost look like some sort of a dance (especially when performed in beat with some nice music) outside of those settings can be extremely deadly.

(Edited by Chambler 16/03/2005 11:54)

Alan, hope you're ok, physically and emotionally. No weakness in saying the former tend to heal quicker than the latter, and an experience like that will have an emotional impact. If it didn't, that would also be slightly worrying...

Weapons - If it can be proven that any item on your person is being carried for the purpose of being used as a weapon - ie. it was premeditated - then this will count against you should your attacker press assault charges on you. And as others have said, if you use your keys in a manner that a jury feels was designed to primarily hurt your attacker, rather than just defend yourself, this will also go badly for you.

Self-Defence - Echoing Bee here, any decent self-defence teacher will tell you that if you can run, run. Self-Defence or Martial Arts moves should only be used when you have no other option. Again, as Bee said, you don't know what weapons they're carrying until they use them on you. So go to the gym, or get together with some like minded mates in the park, and run. Having said that, If you think you are interested enough to commit thoroughly to regular lessons, then I highly recommend doing a martial art. But more for the self-discipline and self-confidence (and depending on the particular martial art, philosophical teachings) rather than an edge when being mugged.

So get your running shoes on, mate.

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by Jayjay
Self-Defence - Echoing Bee here, any decent self-defence teacher will tell you that if you can run, run. Self-Defence or Martial Arts moves should only be used when you have no other option. Again, as Bee said, you don't know what weapons they're carrying until they use them on you.

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Thanks Jayjay It's right, though. The English Martial Arts teacher Britain, who is probably the hardest bloke I will ever meet (20 years doing kung fu, high enough to be on whatever the executive committee is, then another 20-odd years doing English Martial Arts, and 30 years in the Army...) still far rathers running away/making any potential attacker lose interest than using any of his training. The confidence comes from knowing when not to use it, I reckon.

I do hope you're feeling a little better Alan. *hugs*

Aw shucks people, did I ever tell you me loves you all? *Group hug!!*

I used to go to a Karate class twice a week - for people in the Darwen area who may know the same place, that's Andy Alwood (sp?) teaching at the Tower Room at the Leisure Centre - but that was roughly 9 (!) years ago, so I don't know if it's still running. *mental note - find out!*

In retrospect, using my other hand in the Xbox-tug-of-war that lead to me getting the Batman TV show treatment (ie: getting lamped in the face) might've been a better idea seeing as I could've given a little "pre-emptive quid pro quo", so to speak...

I'm a little worried about the mate who was there with me at the time - they called him by name and have since demonstrated they know where he lives; bizzarely, they sent a younger mate round to return his glasses with the message that we'd never see the rest of our stuff again if we involved the police. Heh, a bit too late for that, methinks!

[/ramble]

(Edited by Alan 16/03/2005 17:34)

Hey, i wasnt saying i would break someobe's neck, and actually the situation has to be very specific for that to happen anyway. Even then it probably wouldnt kill, you have to sever the spinal cord for that.

I'm not sorry he taught us things outside the specific karate teachings though, it's very useful for a woman alone to know.

My prefered technique (and the most likley sinario(sp) to happen) is to break their foot (and shin if possible). Then run!

Ok, new idea...

Dress up in a black suit, get yourself a large caliber handgun (preferrably an illegal one) and have plastic surgery to look like Samuel L Jackson, Hire John Travolta to hang around with you and when someone tries to mug you, you ask them if you can have some of their Sprite?

Problem Solved

Me! Me! Me!

Bagsy be Vincent Vega! Pleasepleaseplease!

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by Cat
Hey, i wasnt saying i would break someone's neck

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by Cat
I can break a nose, a jaw and a neck within a heartbeat

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But you quite clearly said you could. Plenty of people who are in the know have already stated that you shouldn't have been taught anything like that, and to be honest I seriously doubt the usefulness of that tactic when applied to a practical situation. Surely you'd have to be perfectly positioned and/or have the element of surprise for it to work If someone is threatening you with, say, a knife, how would you go about positioning yourself in a way where you could break anything of theirs without them - well - stabbing you?

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by Cat
My prefered technique (and the most likley sinario(sp)(scenario) to happen) is to break their foot (and shin if possible).

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Again, dependent on if you are physically able to do so. Relying on the ability to break bones or disable an opponent with a particular defensive move is never wise. You have to be able to adapt to the situation, or have a reasonably fool-proof single tactic, which that isn't.

You also fail to take into account that if you are being attacked, you may not be thinking clearly through fear.

IMO one of our (women's) most powerful weapons is a good loud scream (or a firm and loud "no" ) - especially if you are able to follow it up with a well-placed kick or knee.

Martial arts are great for building strength and confidence and can be incredibly helpful in some attack scenarios - if you have the presence of mind to be able to do them properly under pressure.

However, martial arts and self-defence are completely different things and most self-defence instructors that I have heard say that whatever you do, it's just to buy you enough time to get away safely. It doesn't have to be all-powerful bone-crunching stuff. A quick kick or punch to take someone off-balance or wind them may well suffice.



(Edited by Kate 17/03/2005 15:47)

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by Cat
I can break a nose, a jaw and a neck within a heartbeat

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Blimey, I'll never mess with you then! In fact, I won't mess with anyone here, because you all sound like you're all pretty self defency!

Being a little person, I've never been mugged, yet I've been beaten up walking along the street, because people like to show others who's boss. It's a really scary thing at the time though, because you dont know what kind of weapon they're carrying with them (unless they're waving a big shiny knife in your face) and it's a really big feeling of helplessness, at least for me anyway. So my sympathy really does go out to you, Alan *hugs*

I'd like to think that in this kinda situation I would be big brave and strong, that I could fend of any attack and be able to get away (but in all honesty I believe thats just bravado speaking for me)

I dont think any of us really know how we would react in any given situation , wether we have been taught self defense or even trained in the army etc. Even if it has happended before and you reacted in a aggresive way doesnt mean that you will again.

Hugs to you Alan and your friend and keep safe all

Well, the police reckon they've got those responsible (who're - so I was told at the time - on bail and have been interviewed) and I'm due to get a phone call telling me when to go and make an ID. Sadly, 'traditional' ID parades no longer exist so I can't do a Mr. Bean and make the swines wear bins over their heads. My mate has been given a personal panic alarm-thingy that when pressed instantly calls the police. Nice.

Could anyone here possibly save me a phone call or two by telling me if they know off-hand whether or not the karate class I mentioned earlier is still running?