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Foxes ...
So this week, the Commons voted overwhelmingly for a total ban on fox hunting.
The Lords bashed it back as always.
The government has said it is now going to consult for 6 months, but if necessary will allow the use of the Parliament Act to force it through.
The Government wants a compromise such that hunting will be allowed in cirumstances where it can be shown to be a more humane and practical option than trapping or shooting.
So two questions really...
1) Banning hunting ... a good thing?
2) Are we being somewhat hypocritical to ban hunting whilst ignoring the cruel treatment of domestic animals like chickens etc?
The Lords bashed it back as always.
The government has said it is now going to consult for 6 months, but if necessary will allow the use of the Parliament Act to force it through.
The Government wants a compromise such that hunting will be allowed in cirumstances where it can be shown to be a more humane and practical option than trapping or shooting.
So two questions really...
1) Banning hunting ... a good thing?
2) Are we being somewhat hypocritical to ban hunting whilst ignoring the cruel treatment of domestic animals like chickens etc?
Funny that even after stacking the Lords as best they can the govt still can't get this through
by Incandenza
So this week, the Commons voted overwhelmingly for a total ban on fox hunting.
The Lords bashed it back as always.
Bad, very bad. The Parliament Act is the biggest gun they've got, and they want to use it on something that is by there own words a matter of conscience? This would be a worrying precedent, if it hadn't been done before.
The government has said it is now going to consult for 6 months, but if necessary will allow the use of the Parliament Act to force it through.
And so many other things as well; hunting is being used to placate many groups, from the Labour Left (which is itself almost on the "endagerd species list) to animal welfare groups.
2) Are we being somewhat hypocritical to ban hunting whilst ignoring the cruel treatment of domestic animals like chickens etc?
Perhaps another pertinent question would be why is the govt devoting so much time, effort and money to getting hunting banned (banned, not debated, inspite of the spin), when the countryside has been socially and economically crippled over the last few years, and when there are one or two other things that the public would rather the government focused on (health, education, the economy, transport, wars, etc).
Posted: 12:10 Mar 22 2002 But they're not. If they wanted to, they could get the legislation through swiftly and efficiently. The Lords would take a bit of cracking, but it could be done by building the ban into a complex and important piece of countryside legislation and threatening to junk the lot if it doesn't get through.
by Callum
Perhaps another pertinent question would be why is the govt devoting so much time, effort and money to getting hunting banned (banned, not debated, inspite of the spin),
Yes, it is. Fox hunting is a difficult one for me as a liberal, because I do strongly believe people should have the right to do what they like without government interference, so long as they aren't hurting anyone. I find foxhunting repugnant at a gut level, but in order to justify opposing it on a logical level I have to extend the definition of 'anyone' to include animals, which is a very slippery slope to start off on. Nevertheless, I want it stopped.
by Incandenza
1) Banning hunting ... a good thing?
No, we're not. Because action is gradually being taken on this front too, and because you can act separately on both issues at different speeds. After all, you don't refrain from legislating against rape, just because we haven't cracked how to wipe out murder yet.
by Incandenza
2) Are we being somewhat hypocritical to ban hunting whilst ignoring the cruel treatment of domestic animals like chickens etc?
Posted: 12:28 Mar 22 2002 Exactly, hence the effort going in to spin it, so that it's not obviously being forced through. A lot of work is being done to make it as "open" as possible whilst still tightly controlled, a few select rebels are being allowed to provide token opposition, and the govt still ignores the conclusions of the Burns report.
by Random
(quotes)But they're not. If they wanted to, they could get the legislation through swiftly and efficiently. The Lords would take a bit of cracking, but it could be done by building the ban into a complex and important piece of countryside legislation and threatening to junk the lot if it doesn't get through.
Posted: 12:35 Mar 22 2002
banning huntings good, and erm ignoring other cruelty to animals, one step at a time i think when huntings outta the way we can then worry about the other stuff and stuff.
Posted: 12:43 Mar 22 2002 
Good. Wish you could take legislation on the road, just like you can a play. Seems like you should be able to, so that if we could get stuck with "Cats" for decades, we could get a ban on hunting too. Also that national health thing you Brits have.
by Incandenza
So this week, the Commons voted overwhelmingly for a total ban on fox hunting.
Seriously, IMO, cruelty and kindness are both like muscles--they grow no matter what they're exercised on.
You go Random!
by Random
Because action is gradually being taken on this front too, and because you can act separately on both issues at different speeds. After all, you don't refrain from legislating against rape, just because we haven't cracked how to wipe out murder yet.
(Edited by Diandra 22/03/2002 12:56)
Posted: 12:53 Mar 22 2002 I think so. I find the thought of fox hunting really quite repulsive. While the fox population may need to be controlled, there are considerably more humane ways of doing it. There is always the argument that the rural economy will suffer, but if fox hunting is replaced by drag hunting I for one don't see much difference, except for the bit where an animal isn't torn to pieces by a pack of dogs at the end. Can it really be that inferior an experience for the hunters just because nothing dies?
by Incandenza
1) Banning hunting ... a good thing?
by Incandenza
2) Are we being somewhat hypocritical to ban hunting whilst ignoring the cruel treatment of domestic animals like chickens etc?
What he said
by Random
No, we're not. Because action is gradually being taken on this front too, and because you can act separately on both issues at different speeds. After all, you don't refrain from legislating against rape, just because we haven't cracked how to wipe out murder yet
Posted: 13:23 Mar 22 2002
I always wondered how the "hunter" would feel to be hunted 
and then torn to pieces by something twice his size. (cos it's NOT cruel!!! and the fox doesn't suffer aparently !!!)
I also heard that the hounds are "destroyed" after about 4 years when they get too old to run as fast
The folks involved should just take up riding instead.
So yes I think banning it is a great idea.
As far as other cruelties go, I think the consensus here of "one step at a time" is a good one But preferably if they step a bit quicker 
(Edited by MonSTeR 22/03/2002 13:50)
and then torn to pieces by something twice his size. (cos it's NOT cruel!!! and the fox doesn't suffer aparently !!!)I also heard that the hounds are "destroyed" after about 4 years when they get too old to run as fast
The folks involved should just take up riding instead.
So yes I think banning it is a great idea.
As far as other cruelties go, I think the consensus here of "one step at a time" is a good one
But preferably if they step a bit quicker (Edited by MonSTeR 22/03/2002 13:50)
Posted: 13:48 Mar 22 2002
And yes OK I admit, when I saw the title I did think we were gonna be talking about beautiful women
Posted: 13:54 Mar 22 2002 
Totally agree. Foxes are beautiful, peaceful animals. I have a family of them living at the bottom of my garden and they are so lovely how anyone could ever hurt such a graceful creature I'll never know.
by MonSTeR
I always wondered how the "hunter" would feel to be hunted
Foxhunting SHOULD be banned!
Posted: 14:48 Mar 22 2002
I agree, Fox hunting should be banned - its cruel and I agree with Monster - let the hunters be hunted 
Posted: 14:51 Mar 22 2002
Pretty red jackets, shiny horses, 'Oh yah, Felicity'.
Fox hunting - the national pastime of the snob.
And those that agree with it should take a look at themselves.
Social and intellectual snobs!
Fox hunting - the national pastime of the snob.
And those that agree with it should take a look at themselves.
Social and intellectual snobs!
Posted: 14:57 Mar 22 2002 Try telling that to the chickens.
by Miss Edith
(quotes)
Totally agree. Foxes are beautiful, peaceful animals.
Posted: 14:58 Mar 22 2002 They would argue that this stereotype is a very urban perception of a rural community and is in fact inverted class snobbery itself.
by Red
Pretty red jackets, shiny horses, 'Oh yah, Felicity'.
Fox hunting - the national pastime of the snob.
And those that agree with it should take a look at themselves.
Social and intellectual snobs!
Posted: 15:04 Mar 22 2002 Ooopsie! Someone wanna tell this one that chickens aren't *really* like the ones from animated movies and can't *actually* have conversations? Cos, well gosh, he doesn't seem to realise that
by Incandenza
Try telling that to the chickens.
Posted: 15:07 Mar 22 2002
Foxes can be a problem in certain areas.
In these cases surely it is better to shoot the problem fox rather than chasing willy nilly across the countryside looking for any fox to tear to bits.
It's worth mentioning that lots of cats get killed every year by packs of hunting hounds, I'm sure that people would be a lot less likely to condone hunting withhunds if their moggy had just been ripped to bits.
In these cases surely it is better to shoot the problem fox rather than chasing willy nilly across the countryside looking for any fox to tear to bits.
It's worth mentioning that lots of cats get killed every year by packs of hunting hounds, I'm sure that people would be a lot less likely to condone hunting withhunds if their moggy had just been ripped to bits.
Posted: 15:15 Mar 22 2002
by Red
Ooopsie! Someone wanna tell this one that chickens aren't *really* like the ones from animated movies and can't *actually* have conversations? Cos, well gosh, he doesn't seem to realise that
Which is why it's so hard to explain that "foxes are nice" to the chickens...
(Edited by MonSTeR 22/03/2002 15:20)
Posted: 15:19 Mar 22 2002 I'm sure they would. They have to justify what they do, or indeed don't do somehow.
by Incandenza
They would argue that this stereotype is a very urban perception of a rural community and is in fact inverted class snobbery itself.
And I think you'll find they wouldn't class it as an 'urban perception' as much as how 'the lower classes' think.
How often do you hear of them inviting Joe the dustman to join the hunt? Or offering Gladys the office cleaner cheap membership to their exclusive little clubs? Exclusivity is priority. Snobbery!
*They* live in a league, and world, of their own, and in that world a barbaric sport such as this is fun and thrilling. No mess, no fuss. And drinkies all round after the kill!
Snobs. Social and intellectual. Fact.
Posted: 15:23 Mar 22 2002