I am by instinct anti-fox hunting. That is hardly surprising given that I am a city dweller with left of centre politics. However, as with all things there are two sides to every story and I suspect that the anti-hunt lobby has the better PR (ironically partly because of exactly the anthropormorphisation alluded to by Red above (Disney's the Fox and The Hound for example but a general cultural tendency to imbue animals with human characteristics).

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by Tycho
Foxes can be a problem in certain areas.

In these cases surely it is better to shoot the problem fox rather than chasing willy nilly across the countryside looking for any fox to tear to bits.

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Arguably, shooting is not easier or more humane. Foxes are small and fast and cunningly hard to spot in a rural environment. A bullet does not achieve a clean kill and foxes will often drag themselves away to die slowly.

Hounds are trained to kill a fox by biting the back of its neck to produce a quick kill. Whether or not that happens in reality I would not like to testify to.

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by Tycho
It's worth mentioning that lots of cats get killed every year by packs of hunting hounds, I'm sure that people would be a lot less likely to condone hunting withhunds if their moggy had just been ripped to bits.

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According to the League against Cruel Sports (hardly impartial observers), 6 household cats were killed last year by hunts. I would not dispute that this is a terrible thing, but would probably argue whether it constituted lots.

It seems to me that there is firstly a straight moral question: is it wrong to kill an animal purely for pleasure?

From the general tone of replies I think we can safely assume that the answer of most people is 'Yes.' although quite where that leaves the wearing of leather products in an age of artificial materials, or the eating of meat in an era where vegetarian food is readily available is another matter altogether.

The question then becomes: Is there a good reason to kill foxes?

The answer according to any farmer would be yes, foxes kill our chickens and our lambs (it is interesting to note that foxes don't kill to eat, they will kill *every* chicken if they manage to get into their living area).

There are currently 4 legal ways to kill foxes in the UK: Hunting with hounds, shooting, trapping with snares and digging using terriers.
No single method is entirely suitable or sufficient for all circumstances.

There are extreme anti-hunting groups and there are more moderate ones. The moderate ones concede that there are circumstances where hunting with hounds is *more* humane than the other methods available.

A third option put to the Commons was to license hunting such that the only hunts to proceed would be those that were demonstrably more humane than any alternative available. This was overwhelmingly voted down.

I'm not a class warrior by any means, in fact, i believe that some semblence of a class system in necessary, however, i still think that Fox Hunting should be banned.

There are other ways to control animal's populations and fox hunting is just an inhumane (or very humane, if you take the cynic's view of human nature) way for people to get kicks. Stop It.

Ban fox hunting

nuff said

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by Red
(quotes)

I'm sure they would. They have to justify what they do, or indeed don't do somehow.

And I think you'll find they wouldn't class it as an 'urban perception' as much as how 'the lower classes' think.

How often do you hear of them inviting Joe the dustman to join the hunt? Or offering Gladys the office cleaner cheap membership to their exclusive little clubs? Exclusivity is priority. Snobbery!

*They* live in a league, and world, of their own, and in that world a barbaric sport such as this is fun and thrilling. No mess, no fuss. And drinkies all round after the kill!

Snobs. Social and intellectual. Fact.

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What is it that they don't do that they have to justify?

The specific complaint of the pro-country lobby is that the decisions are made by those with no understanding of rural life. The majority of MP's who voted against hunting are not lower class but they *are* urbanites.

I have never invited Joe the milkman to Nos either, but I am sure if he was sufficiently interested he would be able to find out about attending.

Equally, why should Gladys the cleaner get 'cheap' membership to a club. If a club is providing an expensive service, why shouldn't it charge those who can afford to pay for it?

For the record, a hunt does not exclude anyone. It is easier to follow the hunt if you have a horse (but then it is easier to snowboard on a snowboard). It costs £40 or so to join a hunt as a non-member. I am sure that if Joe or Gladys were interested in going, they could find this out and if they really wanted to go they could probably afford it too.

As for living in a world of your own, doesn't any social group? I know a bunch of people who dress up in black leather or as vampires before going out for 'drinkies'.

Snobbery is prejudice and prejudice is an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

Ban it

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Snobbery is prejudice and prejudice is an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
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Interesting comment, especially as I have indeed looked up the *facts* involved in fox-hunting and the society which deems it a 'fun time'.

Allow me to copy paste a few things about this 'sport' ...

Official season : Cub hunting : 4 August to 31 October

Fox hunting : 1 November to 1 May

Bless! They even have a season for hunting the babies!

Hunting is so costly that some hunts have joint masterships

Cheap at half the price, I'm sure.

The Hunt Committee - They are responsible for the ‘hunt country’ - which includes the wages for hunt servants

Servants? How quaint!

Earth Stoppers : These people go out either late at night or early in the morning and block all the earths while the fox is above ground going about his business. They may be paid by the hunt, or just do it for the love of it.

But hey! I'm sure they still give them a sporting chance at survival.

90% of the field are there for the social side of hunting and are more interested in whether Rodney knows that Cynthia is having an affair with Guy, than whether the hounds have killed a fox! The majority seem to care little for the technicalities of hunting and are most likely to come out with cliched defences of hunting which they have learned parrot fashion

Excuse my 'Felicity', I should have said 'Oh Yah, Cynthia'

It must be remembered that hunts like to kill their quarry above ground, as they generally believe that it is more sporting, but the quick, clean death of the fox, so joyfully spread by the hunting fraternity is, in the majority of cases a lie. They will say that a fox is always killed by hounds with a quick nip on the back of the neck thus severing the spinal cord. It may die finally this way, but it is likely that it will suffer multiple agonising injuries before the final ‘nip’ is given. Many foxes have been recovered with their innards torn out, but no sign of that fatal nip. When the fox is finally cornered by the hounds above ground the huntsman (if present) will encourage the hounds by voice thus, ‘tear ‘im and eat ‘im’ and similar noises. The horn will also be blown for the kill.

They *lie* about the 'quick nip'? Colour me stunned!

After removing trophies, i.e. mask (head), brush (tail), pads (feet), the remains will be thrown to the hounds.

Saves on Winalot I guess.

The digging out of a fox may take sometime and the hunt don’t usually wait for the outcome

Drinkies time, chaps!

Sometimes hunts will arrange a special meet for children belonging to these clubs, who are ripe for indoctrination

Get 'em while they're young and impressionable!


Fox hunting has no place in decent, civilised society. But ... d'ya think Cynthia really did it? Oh yah!

just a few points:

foxes are aren't exactly gentle peaceful animals-they rip hens etc to shreds.
I loathe the hunt sabs. who call themselves animal lovers and then spray stuff in the horses' eyes and slash their legs to stop them hunting. And who can forget the one hunt sab who bang trash cans in a horses face causing it to rear and crush the rider to death?
A lot of horses and hunt dogs will have to be put down if hunting is banned and many people will be out of jobs.

About snobs: a few people are stuck up but at the Hunt Ball I went to the people were actually pleasant.

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by Barbara
just a few points:

I loathe the hunt sabs.

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Ban the hunting, & these people will cease to exist

LOL

I'm not particaulry pro-hunt or anti-hunt but I just find it surprsing what *some* hunt sabs do when they call themselves animal lovers.

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by Barbara
just a few points:

foxes are aren't exactly gentle peaceful animals-they rip hens etc to shreds.

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Ermmm isn't that what wild animals do to survive? A badger doesn't exactly buy his dinner at Asda's and cats even so called domesticated ( like my ickle one ) do far worse.

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by Sweet-Sange
(quotes)

Ermmm isn't that what wild animals do to survive? A badger doesn't exactly buy his dinner at Asda's and cats even so called domesticated ( like my ickle one ) do far worse.

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That's a good point.

Nature is cruel but animals kill from an instinct to survive.

Fox hunters are doing it for sport. Different thing entirely.

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by Incandenza(it is interesting to note that foxes don't kill to eat, they will kill *every* chicken if they manage to get into their living area

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I'm no expert in these matters, and I can't be bothered to check my facts, and if anyone challenges my opinion, I'll insist that this conversation did not take place, but...

I'd imagine that if any feral animal forced it's way into an enclosed space to catch a meal, and was consequently met with a cacophany of clucking and squawking, its reactions might be less than measured. Hundreds of years of parallel evolution haven't yet given rise to foxes canny enough to keep their heads in such a situation, whatever the fables might say about sly foxes.

Farming and foxes just don't mix (poultry farming, anyway. I wonder what the arable farmers think of foxes..?).

Joe - You are absolutely right to say that the fox is acting from instinct. They are not cunning or sly, nor evil and vicious. But unfortunately their instincts do threaten the livelihood of farmers and of their livestock.

Regarding the *facts* copy pasted above, the tenor of the text excerpts was fairly evident.

They all came from a Hunt Saboteur Web Site. Hardly the most likely place to get a balanced view of any of the issues surrounding what is clearly an emotive topic.

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by Red

Bless! They even have a season for hunting the babies!

Cheap at half the price, I'm sure.

Servants? How quaint!

But hey! I'm sure they still give them a sporting chance at survival.

Excuse my 'Felicity', I should have said 'Oh Yah, Cynthia'

They *lie* about the 'quick nip'? Colour me stunned!

Saves on Winalot I guess.

Drinkies time, chaps!

Get 'em while they're young and impressionable!

Fox hunting has no place in decent, civilised society. But ... d'ya think Cynthia really did it? Oh yah!

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I started this thread because I was interested in what people thought and because I supect there is more to the debate than a gut instinct (which incidentally I share) that hunting is abhorrent.

Unfortunately, it has turned into an exercise in class prejudice and flippant remarks so I think I will leave it be now.

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by Incandenza
Regarding the *facts* copy pasted above, the tenor of the text excerpts was fairly evident.

They all came from a Hunt Saboteur Web Site. Hardly the most likely place to get a balanced view of any of the issues surrounding what is clearly an emotive topic.

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Yes, they do. They also give out the *full* facts and information. If anyone wishes to read the 'page' I read, giving the information on all aspects of fox-hunting, from their equipment to the social side, via the cruelty, I would be more than happy to tell them.

Yes, it is an emotive subject. Will always be so. Reactions and opinions are valid, no matter who posts them or who agrees with them.

If you don't wish to hear them, don't post asking for them.

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by Incandenza
According to the League against Cruel Sports (hardly impartial observers), 6 household cats were killed last year by hunts. I would not dispute that this is a terrible thing, but would probably argue whether it constituted lots.

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Of course if it was your pet cat you would think that 6 is 6 to many.

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by Incandenza
I started this thread because I was interested in what people thought and because I supect there is more to the debate than a gut instinct (which incidentally I share) that hunting is abhorrent.

Unfortunately, it has turned into an exercise in class prejudice and flippant remarks so I think I will leave it be now.

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You asked about fox hunting and the majority of people who take part in it are of a certain class so it is a quiet valid point. Of course I remember someone on the buffyuk boards calling me a white middle class male.

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by Red
(quotes)

Yes, they do. They also give out the *full* facts and information.

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Are you really that naive? You really think that hunt sabs are so much less biased that, say, the Countryside Alliance?

Perhaps, if people want the full facts they should look at something impartial, such as the Burns report, rather than anti-hunt rhetoric from an organisation who raison d'etre is opposition to the matter in question

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by Barbara
just a few points:

foxes are aren't exactly gentle peaceful animals-they rip hens etc to shreds.

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May I just clarify exactly what I meant by "peaceful" Foxes prefer to be left well alone they are not naturally aggressive towards people and will rarely approach. Maybe I used the wrong word, but I think that qualifies as peaceful. As for the Hen's, well most of us probably rip Cows to pieces every Sunday with a knife and fork, different tactic same aim.

No offence to you Barbara, but I would rather boil my head than go to a ball full of these toffee nosed snobs.

The RSPCA's Alex Ross, for the Campaign for the Protection of Hunted Animals, added: "We do not believe that foxes are a national pest or a national problem.

"We believe fox hunting is cruel and unnecessary. If there is a problem with a fox, then a skilled marksman is the only answer. But killing wild animals for pleasure should not be acceptable in this day and age."

and the RSPCA are biased ?

It doesn't matter how many reports you read how many £'s are spent decieding wether it should or should not go on ... the main point is it's cruel pure and simple.