It's not setting mine alight either! But ignoring it won't make it go away; better we face it openly and try to solve it than push it back under the surface knowing it'll shoot up again.

We arent solving tho.

Something drastic needs to be done, not masses of posts of people biting chunks out of each other.

We're not just biting chunks out each other though. Once the insults stopped and we began talking, everyone found out what the other (for want of a better word) side's issues are, and that's inching us towards an understanding. Might be slow, but people on all sides are already giving ground and trying to find a way forward.

I know it's not pleasant, but it's got to be better than letting things deteriorate to the point of bannings and resignations.

And despite appearances the staff as a whole are responding to this : now we know what people's concerns are we're working out a mutually acceptable way of settling them. There's a *lot* going on behind the scenes right now : not just about politics threads but about the site as a whole; about bringing people back into the fold and helping T21 get back on its feet.

I know there is and i back it more than anyone.

Im just sick of people tossing back and forth comments that really arent going to get anyone anywhere

Well -- generalizing a bit -- the comments have already got people who like discussing politics to accept that they need to change the way they go about it, and the threads as they are help drive some people away ; and people who want that change to accept that some members expressing their dislike with personal attacks only makes things worse, and perhaps debate threads aren't the biggest cause of the site's problems.

If nothing else, at least any suggestion of mass apathy has been put to rest ; a great many people still care about the site ; you don't see 100+ post threads if no-one gives a toss. Of course this isn't how anyone wanted to see that loyalty expressed, but if the underlying issues can be resolved -- staff proposals to do so will be along within days -- and that passion converted into positive action -- I genuinely believe it will be -- then we'd be heading away from the stilled water at a rate of knots.

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by MonSTeR
Or maybe I am wrong, you are being perfectly nice but mean and suspicious folks like me make you out to be a bad guy.

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I'm afraid that's how it looks to me on this occasion. My question was simple, addressed a point, and you jumped on me for it. You should try to give people the benefit of the doubt, whatever your personal feelings. That's a large part of what being a moderator is all about.

See, the problem is that this (well, hopefully) misreading of posts works both ways. Posts like the following:

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by MonSTeR
Mainly I’d like to see inclusive posting not threads about letting the pseudo-intellectually superior debate in peace.

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by lizzieslayer
It's a General Chat forum not a fight/politics forum.

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Make me feel unwelcome. I'm a member, doesn't inclusivity include me? I've been here since The Road to T21 days, posted in just as many silly as serious threads, but often I feel that when I come here there's a number of people who wished I wouldn't. And the really stupid thing is that many of the posts that make me feel that way are by people who's company and conversation I enjoy, and who, dare I say it, I even think of as friends.

I don't go around posting in threads that don't interest me saying that the posts are boring, or that there are too many of that type of thread, I just don't go in them. Or if I wander in by mistake I click 'Back to the Forum'. But this courtesy does not seem to be returned. It almost feels like everyone else has a right to demand that only certain types of posts should be included on this site and my own opinion has no value.

Which, I hope, is an over-reaction on my part, but can you really not see why I feel that way after having read through this thread? I know and like pretty much everyone who has posted here, but much of what has been posted here reads like 'go away, you're not wanted here, you pretentious snob'.

My point, then. Can we ALL please stop telling each other what to post? As long as posts are within the family friendly remit of the site, and are not personal attacks, or deviating from the subject too much (this thread excepted...) is it really an issue? Instead of attacking other peoples posting styles, or subjects of choice maybe we should ask ourselves instead, is my offence due to how I am interpreting the post, and if there are not enough threads on subjects that interest me, what am I doing about it?

Basically, all I'm asking for, is a little bit of (mutual) respect.

Can't believe this thread is still going. Personally I don't think theres much of a chance of saving the site, but I think if people want to they should start trying to rather than just talking about it going to pot. Some things in here I agree with, some I don't.
I'm not much of a fan of political threads, but I don't see how arguing about them is going to stop them being posted. Would it not be a good idea for someone to start up a thread on ideas how to make this place a bit more lively and friendly? For example, i'd suggest something like everyone making an effort to post a new thread during this week, political or not, I would imagine there then would be more fun threads, thats one way to tackle the problem. Also there doesn't seem to be any new blood on the site, no newbies who we could get to know and may help bring some new life to the site with them. So how about also everyone get a friend to join? These are just a couple of ideas, they may work, they may not, but I think its a better idea doing something like that rater than constantly arguing about the state the site is now in, it just makes it an even worse atmosphere.

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by Jayjay
My point, then. Can we ALL please stop telling each other what to post? As long as posts are within the family friendly remit of the site, and are not personal attacks, or deviating from the subject too much (this thread excepted...) is it really an issue?

Instead of attacking other peoples posting styles, or subjects of choice maybe we should ask ourselves instead, is my offence due to how I am interpreting the post, and if there are not enough threads on subjects that interest me, what am I doing about it?

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The problem is; the style of the current threads makes some people with a genuine interest feel unwelcome. And it can't all put down to misconstruing other people's posts.

All this is has been particularly unfair on posters like yourself, whose comments are always measured and respectful of others point of view, even when saying something controversial. (Well you're usually saying something controversial, but politely.)

Seems we're being asked: post less like Alan B'stard and more like JayJay. But a bit shorter. ( ) Personally speaking I'm happy to change my style. I re-worded the opening and, blow me, but the calmer version was *better*. Clearer; less partisan; more likely to make people who disagree feel welcome taking part.

Which, ultimately, is why I want to post the bloody things to being with.

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Basically, all I'm asking for, is a little bit of (mutual) respect.

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Of course, what I said above cuts both ways. Everyone who dislikes the politics threads, please ask yourself the following question: is there *any* reasonable change that would make them acceptable?

If the answer's no then, without wanting to seem rude, please follow JayJay's advice and ignore the threads, because, as staff, I can tell you we're not about to ban them entirely. If this is about changing the threads, it's constructive; if it's about banning them, it isn't.

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by SPIKE
Can't believe this thread is still going. Personally I don't think theres much of a chance of saving the site, but I think if people want to they should start trying to rather than just talking about it going to pot. Some things in here I agree with, some I don't.
I'm not much of a fan of political threads, but I don't see how arguing about them is going to stop them being posted. Would it not be a good idea for someone to start up a thread on ideas how to make this place a bit more lively and friendly? For example, i'd suggest something like everyone making an effort to post a new thread during this week, political or not, I would imagine there then would be more fun threads, thats one way to tackle the problem. Also there doesn't seem to be any new blood on the site, no newbies who we could get to know and may help bring some new life to the site with them. So how about also everyone get a friend to join? These are just a couple of ideas, they may work, they may not, but I think its a better idea doing something like that rater than constantly arguing about the state the site is now in, it just makes it an even worse atmosphere.

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Blimey, some of the best suggestions on the thread have come from Spike!

I can say for sure that staff would love a member-driven thread full of positive suggestions to get the site going again. And as I said earlier, our own proposals to start the process will be along within days.

FYI we have agreed a package of things that might make a difference for threads like this and people who hate them, more detail soon.

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by The_Host
(quotes)I'm afraid that's how it looks to me on this occasion. My question was simple, addressed a point, and you jumped on me for it. You should try to give people the benefit of the doubt, whatever your personal feelings. That's a large part of what being a moderator is all about.

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I'm a great one for giving the benefit of the doubt, but how much doubt does there need to be?

If you were genuinely asking a simple question, then I'm sorry. But simple questions verge on patronising questions, I still read your post that way. It raised a point, yes, but more so it antagonised the situation. And, yes I took issue with it and that's how these things start, someone's not clear enough in what they post, and others can misinterpret it.

as an aside though I gave up being a moderator here a long time ago which is why I feel more able to go toe-to-toe on some of the issues that before, as a mod, I'd have shyed away from, or spoken out of turn on.

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by Byron

The problem is; the style of the current threads makes some people with a genuine interest feel unwelcome. And it can't all put down to misconstruing other people's posts.

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That's exactly how I feel about this Byron. See, look agreement!!! Yes the slightly wonky misinterpretation sets people on edge, but there's something else underlying it all. I think most folks just want to get along.

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by Byron
All this is has been particularly unfair on posters like yourself, whose comments are always measured and respectful of others point of view, even when saying something controversial. (Well you're usually saying something controversial, but politely.)

Seems we're being asked: post less like Alan B'stard and more like JayJay. But a bit shorter. ( ) Personally speaking I'm happy to change my style. I re-worded the opening and, blow me, but the calmer version was *better*. Clearer; less partisan; more likely to make people who disagree feel welcome taking part.

Which, ultimately, is why I want to post the bloody things to being with.

Of course, what I said above cuts both ways. Everyone who dislikes the politics threads, please ask yourself the following question: is there *any* reasonable change that would make them acceptable?

If the answer's no then, without wanting to seem rude, please follow JayJay's advice and ignore the threads, because, as staff, I can tell you we're not about to ban them entirely. If this is about changing the threads, it's constructive; if it's about banning them, it isn't.

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I’d just like to add that if someone posts a shorter less informed, less structured point, then incorporate that into the flow, don’t make them feel stupid, or unwelcome. Point them in the direction of a link to learn more, or even take the time to explain something in plain english.

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by Jayjay
See, the problem is that this (well, hopefully) misreading of posts works both ways. Posts like the following:

by MonSTeR
Mainly I’d like to see inclusive posting not threads about letting the pseudo-intellectually superior debate in peace.


by lizzieslayer
It's a General Chat forum not a fight/politics forum.



Make me feel unwelcome. I'm a member, doesn't inclusivity include me?

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I’d say no, not if you want to be exclusive! (Our) Byron once said something along the lines of being intolerant of the intolerant, I shouted him down then, but on this occasion I see that his point justly applies!

I’m not calling for an end to debate, I’m calling for an end to an exclusive members’ only club, with an IQ prerequisite, on debate. The “pseudo intellectual” should be free to debate, yes but my point was that they shouldn’t exclude others from joining in that debate even if they don’t want to use the long words.

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by Jayjay
I've been here since The Road to T21 days, posted in just as many silly as serious threads, but often I feel that when I come here there's a number of people who wished I wouldn't. And the really stupid thing is that many of the posts that make me feel that way are by people who's company and conversation I enjoy, and who, dare I say it, I even think of as friends.

I don't go around posting in threads that don't interest me saying that the posts are boring, or that there are too many of that type of thread, I just don't go in them. Or if I wander in by mistake I click 'Back to the Forum'. But this courtesy does not seem to be returned. It almost feels like everyone else has a right to demand that only certain types of posts should be included on this site and my own opinion has no value.

Which, I hope, is an over-reaction on my part, but can you really not see why I feel that way after having read through this thread? I know and like pretty much everyone who has posted here, but much of what has been posted here reads like 'go away, you're not wanted here, you pretentious snob'.

Basically, all I'm asking for, is a little bit of (mutual) respect.

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I’m not really interested in taking the floor in the debate threads, as I said, I’m more a discusser than a debater. These days it’s rare I have the time for protracted posting. But I want to feel free to nod along at the points I agree with and shake my head at those I don’t, without being verbally mugged for not having the time to write a paper on the subject and having the audacity to say nothing more than “I agree with Jayjay”

Yes I agree, stay out of the threads that don’t interest you, but my issue here is what if the thread interests me, but my vocabulary isn’t as extensive as other members’ ? All I’m asking for on this point, is the same as everyone else, give peace a chance.

On etiquette; I’m not telling folks what to post, I am suggeting tips on how to post. Don’t post ambiguously, don’t leave a lot of flexibility in interpretation and be take care to ensure there’s no room for folks to think you’re attacking, or as we know, things take a turn for the worse.

On the mutual respect thing, we just need to wrap up the “you first” bit and we’re there

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by MonSTeR
That's exactly how I feel about this Byron. See, look agreement!!!

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Crikey, that can't be right?!

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Yes the slightly wonky misinterpretation sets people on edge, but there's something else underlying it all. I think most folks just want to get along.

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I like to think so as well.

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I’d just like to add that if someone posts a shorter less informed, less structured point, then incorporate that into the flow, don’t make them feel stupid, or unwelcome. Point them in the direction of a link to learn more, or even take the time to explain something in plain english.

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Ironically I've avoided that 'cause I don't want to be patronising! My intention is to show people *respect* by treating everyone's posts alike; when I rebut a particular point, the unspoken intention isn't that it's a stupid point, it's that it's worth rebutting.

Sure, I can post links explaining more, and break points down, although there's a limit to how far they can be broken down and retain their meaning; but also, if a post of mine reads like a putdown, know that's not my intention (well usually ), I'm not looking down on your opinion, and if I've not explained something very well I'll try and put it right if asked.

But I'm still right.

(Edited by Byron 19/04/2006 20:24)

And I know the following is directed at JayJay, but I'd like to say a quick (no really) word on in.

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I’m not calling for an end to debate, I’m calling for an end to an exclusive members’ only club, with an IQ prerequisite, on debate. The “pseudo intellectual” should be free to debate, yes but my point was that they shouldn’t exclude others from joining in that debate even if they don’t want to use the long words.

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"Pseudo-intellectual" might just be banter, that's how I'm taking it, but it's still calling people fakes. (Why the long words Mon? ) I can't think of anyone in the debate threads posting opinions they've been unable to back-up when challenged; no one boasts about any qualifications they might have; and I've only ever mentioned IQ here to say the current test is bollocks.

So let's kick that phrase into touch.

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by Byron
And I know the following is directed at JayJay, but I'd like to say a quick (no really) word on in.
(quotes)
"Pseudo-intellectual" might just be banter, that's how I'm taking it, but it's still calling people fakes. (Why the long words Mon? ) I can't think of anyone in the debate threads posting opinions they've been unable to back-up when challenged; no one boasts about any qualifications they might have; and I've only ever mentioned IQ here to say the current test is bollocks.

So let's kick that phrase into touch.

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The IQ prerequisite thing was I think a quip from a Buffy episode about there's no secret handshake, there's an IQ prerequisite but there's no secret handshake" Something like that anyway. But yes the "pseudo intellectual" thing is banter, without any sinister undertones, veiled insults or even any hidden bonus levels for that matter

And contrary to popular belief I'm rather good at long words when I put my mind to it

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by MonSTeR
The IQ prerequisite thing was I think a quip from a Buffy episode about there's no secret handshake, there's an IQ prerequisite but there's no secret handshake" Something like that anyway.

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No fair, I want a secret handshake.

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But yes the "pseudo intellectual" thing is banter, without any sinister undertones, veiled insults or even any hidden bonus levels for that matter

And contrary to popular belief I'm rather good at long words when I put my mind to it

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Careful now, it's dangerous to pull something out of hibernation too quickly.

Assumed it was banter mate, only brought it up cos we're negotiating our way through a field of eggshells right now.

Okay: we've got staff suggestions just about ready to roll out, and the discussion's winding down, so I think this thread's run it's course. Further discussion about the future of T21 is best done in a dedicated, less specific and less heated thread in the Feedback forum.

Just so people have prior warning if they feel there's something really important that needs adding before the padlock goes on, I'm leaving it open another 24 hours, then closing it. A wooden stake is being considered.

But just about everything that needs to be said on this has been, so unless there's some really essential to add, comments are best posted in Feeedback.

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by MonSTeR
I'm a great one for giving the benefit of the doubt, but how much doubt does there need to be?

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A bit of common sense and a basic grasp of the English language was all that was required in this case.

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If you were genuinely asking a simple question, then I'm sorry. But simple questions verge on patronising questions, I still read your post that way. It raised a point, yes, but more so it antagonised the situation. And, yes I took issue with it and that's how these things start, someone's not clear enough in what they post, and others can misinterpret it.

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Simple questions. 'Pseudo-intellectual' essays. Completely non 'pseudo-intellectual' references to Buffy. Whatever one chooses to have an issue with, nothing quite beats not banging on interminally about something that you got wrong, plain and simple. Right now, you look as if however much light, rather than heat, is generated by this debate/discussion (or however you want to split hairs), you require a whipping boy to address your own assumption that others are being pretentious just because they use the vocabulary at their disposal. I won't be that whipping boy, though. The most you can do is needle me into getting banned (and you're part of the 'club' that can be snide without risking that). I don't need to be here enough to mind that. So you got what you wanted. You've 'antagonised' me by not letting it lie. This thread probably won't stay open long enough to further the quest to feel better about yourself. You have to ask yourself if you want to start all over again in another thread.

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as an aside though I gave up being a moderator here a long time ago which is why I feel more able to go toe-to-toe on some of the issues that before, as a mod, I'd have shyed away from, or spoken out of turn on.

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That was a wise decision. A degree of power over people tests character. Some people learn that a messageboard is not about going 'toe-to-toe'.

Quite a few people have mentioned the 'respect' issue on Political threads... and said that they back out of threads on things that don't interest them without commenting. I think some of these posters have having particularly selective memories. Take the annual Big Brother threads. The only reason the people who like watching and discussing Big Brother weren't attacked last year is that I suggested they start their own anti-Big Brother thread. That worked, but prior to that I had to endure 3 years of posts on a subject I liked being slagged off as being intellectually inferior because I watched a partiular TV Programme. It wasn't everyone - for instance Kate has posted in those threads and put her point across in a balanced way that wasn't personally antagonisic.

Basically - what I'm saying is the respect thing needs to go both ways. Just because one 'group' is being vilified at the moment doesn't mean that other groups haven't been in the past. Its just that right now is when things have come to ahead.

For the record, I feel I belong to both groups. Hey one of my political threads was deleted by the PTB once! I'm active in politics and I have strong opinions and for that reason I sometimes avoid posting in the political threads because My beliefs are so strong and so anti the main thrust of opinion I know I wouldn't be able to remain polite in the current posting environment. Most People post in a way that I'd feel comfortable debating with. Two people don't. Know that one of those people has said they have looked at their posting style and will try to revise it then maybe I'll feel more confident at expressing my opinions. Maybe.