my unlce hung himself a while back now and at the time i was upset but i sorta thought he was stupid i suppose. he did it coz my aunty left him and he couldn't live without her or the kids and i know a lot of other stuff happened to him as a child which was very serious and i think it all got to him. after this though i did consider doing it myself a lot of times when i had trouble at school and i suppose if you are in so much pain maybe it is the best way out of life, but then again its sort of cowardly and not facing up to your problems. i feel many different things towards it and its also the fact if i did it i'd hurt people who did care about me even though it seems they may not.

Edited part of the post out. For more info read the added warning

(Edited by Chambler 26/03/2002 16:23)

This thread was just moved from Suspended forums (id: 124)

In 1997, the World Health Organisation estimated that 786,000 people commited suicide each year. The vast majority of those are young men (the ratio in the UK is 5 men for every woman).

In America, it is the third biggest killer of teenagers after motor vehicle accidents and accidental injury.

Despite that, it is not spoken about. It is a major health issue and has been for the last 25 years, especially for men. 1 in every 10,000 men will kill themselves. I would suggest that points to broader social ills.

Our every genetic instinct is to survive. To willingly take your own life, you have to overrule all those instincts.

That in itself should give some indication as to the terrible situation people find themselves in.

Personally ...

As an aetheist, I simply don't accept the notion of 'going to hell for committing suicide'.

Euthanasia is principally concerned with incurable or terminal physical conditions. These are (barring sudden advances in medical knowledge) generally quantifiable. Such a decision can be seen as an informed one.

Suicide is principally concerned with depressive conditions and the perception of neverending psychological pain. However, depression is treatable and people and circumstances change, sometimes with breathtaking speed.

I believe it is extremely rare that being dead carries more benefit than being alive, and that the majority of people who commit suicide are mistaken in their perceptions of the situation they find themselves in.

That is sad but not 'wrong'. Unfortunately it is not a mistake that can be remedied and it leaves a lot of damage in its wake.

I am not sure where the issues of stigma or shame come into it. The individual is beyond such concepts and their actions should not reflect on those left behind.


(Edited by Incandenza 26/03/2002 17:30)

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by Incandenza
Personally ...

I think the religious argument is bogus hogwash but them types aint reknowned for their tolerance in any case.

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"Them types"? I would like clarification of that comment. Are you referring to religious people?

If so, I don't think attacking them is a particularly fair thing to do. They have their beliefs as you do yours.

I actually agree with everything Incandenza has said, regarding suicide (the flippant religious remark was indeed bang out of order).

I always find that those with the best opinions on subjects such as this are those with first hand experience.

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by Sweet-Sange

"Them types"? I would like clarification of that comment. Are you referring to religious people?

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Sorry Sange. The intolerance or otherwise of religions through the ages is open to debate, but I would not want it to distract from Betty Boops thread.

I have edited my post.

A teacher once spoke to me about sucide, she knew my background of it and knew alot of teachers had either told me i was an idiot or tried to convice me my life was worth living. She told me about her cousin.

She said that when he killed himseld she was sad because she loved him. But she then said that she was happy for him, she knew how unhappy he was and knew that this life wasn't for him.

In my eyes suicide is acceptable in cases, it all depends on someones reasons.

But who are we to decide if people have a right to end a life that is theirs?

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by KaTiEStar
But who are we to decide if people have a right to end a life that is theirs?

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I do agree with you there, but I also think that in SOME cases suicide is a little bit selfish. What about the people who are left behind? The loss of a loved one is a very emotional and difficult time, and some people never recover. Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but we all go through hard times and low times that's what life is!

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by BettyBoop
so what is the difference between someone in physical pain asking for help to die (euthanasia) or someone in psychological pain taking a decision to end their life?

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IMHO the difference is who deals with the guilt, plain and simple.

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by BettyBoopis it acceptable to take your own life?

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Yes, absolutely. It's your life. It is no different to every decision I make everyday regarding the other things I own.

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by BettyBoopIs it as acceptable as euthanasia?

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In what way do you mean? Is suicide acceptable as euthanasia? Sorry, hon, I'm not sure by your own definition above how you mean suicide can be a form of euthanisia?

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by BettyBoopDo you still attatch a stigma to it, do other people?

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No, and not many people I have spoken to about this recently do either. Perhaps we are moving out of the dark ages at last.

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by BettyBoopDo you think it is something to be ashamed about?

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No, of course not. For the family who do attach stigmas, and who do not believe the suicide is acceptable, obviously shame prevails, but its really nothing to do with anyone else apart from the person who chose to end their life, and they are dead anyway so it really doesn't matter.

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by Miss Edith
(quotes)
I also think that in SOME cases suicide is a little bit selfish.

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I see what you are saying but is it not selfish to expect a person to live in a life of loss and misery day in day out just to save your emotions?

Yes it is selfish to kill yourself, but it is also selfish to expect someone else to live because you want them around. It's selfish of me to tell a friend I can't meet him tonight becuase I just don't feel like going out, and it's selfish of me to hide a sweater that's on sale in a different rail just so I can shop around and go back for it later.... I think everything in life is about different degrees of selfishness. Regarding the suicide thing, its almost like the lesser of two evils - neither is the preferred way, its about which is the easiest to bear.

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by Miss EdithWhat about the people who are left behind? The loss of a loved one is a very emotional and difficult time, and some people never recover.

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That's very true. If one of my loved ones was to commit suicide, I'd like to think that I was strong enough to respect that decision. I know for a fact that people who take their own life are not really in a frame of mind to be considering what people will think of them if they do carry it through - decisions like that are not even in the equation.

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by Miss EdithObviously it depends on the circumstances, but we all go through hard times and low times that's what life is!

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.. and if you can deal with that, then you are one of the lucky ones. Unfortunately not everybody's brain works in the same way, and people react differently to different situations. It doesn't mean they are wrong, it just means they deal with it differently.

Its very hard for someone who can deal to comprehend that other people cannot, never mind why not. IMHO this lack of understanding hasn't helped the 'stigma's that have become associtated with suicide in the past.

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by Desire
In what way do you mean? Is suicide acceptable as euthanasia? Sorry, hon, I'm not sure by your own definition above how you mean suicide can be a form of euthanisia?

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I meant that I have spoken to a large number of people about this today, some were educational psychologists, some were clinical, some forensic, some cognitive, etc etc; and like myself a number of them all have experience of loosing someone to suicide, they are all highly educated people who have a large knowledge base on the subject (be it personal & professional oriented) and yet the pervading air of many opinions seems to be that euthanasia is acceptable (and on a side line we all agreed that it should be made legal)but suicide is not as acceptable-that was where my question came from. Not is it a form of euthanasia, but is it as acceptable AS euthanasia is.

With regards to the whole stigma issue, I think that, yes there is a stigma attached to suicide. With euthanasia, the person involved talks about it to the people close to them or the doctors treating them. With suicide, the person involved tries their best to hide it from everyone, and, in some cases, pours out whatever they're feeling into a note to be read afterwards.

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by Miss Edith
(quotes)
The loss of a loved one is a very emotional and difficult time, and some people never recover.

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I think that nobody really "recovers". You've just got to go on. The world doesn't stop, you still have a life, and a job or school to go to. You don't recover so much as accept it. There's always going to be a part of you that feels wrong, because something's missing, and always will be.
As a lot of you know, my best friend committed suicide last year. We were both 14 at the time and, as I'd never lost someone so close, I really didn't know how to deal with it. I can talk about it a lot more easily now, of course depending on my mood talking about it can still make me cry. I've never truly "recovered" from it, and never will, but my perspective has changed. It was what she wanted. Hard as it is for me to accept it, it was her life, and her choice to end it.
I can't understand why she felt so hopeless, and I never will. Part of me will always be missing, I know that I'll never truly recover. But at the same time, I'm still alive, I still have things I want to do, and so I've got to keep going. I'm not recovered, I've adjusted.

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by BettyBoop
(quotes)
but is it as acceptable AS euthanasia is?

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Gotcha, thanks for that.

Interesting isn't it that both of our professional groups hold totally different opinion? Most of the people I have spoken to about this feel strongly that suicide is acceptable now, as there is less of a religious presence in contemporary society (but please lets not go into that!), but euthanasia is far more in the grey due to it being mainly about another party.

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by PictureOfFlowers
With regards to the whole stigma issue, I think that, yes there is a stigma attached to suicide. With euthanasia, the person involved talks about it to the people close to them or the doctors treating them. With suicide, the person involved tries their best to hide it from everyone, and, in some cases, pours out whatever they're feeling into a note to be read afterwards.

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I think the stigma is related to the stigma which is attached to any form of mental illness - of which depression is a form.

I personally think that people who decide to end their lives are not cowards at all; it is a huge decision to decide that you want to die, and to take steps to bring about your death and not back out of it. And about the question of selfishness - depression sinks you into a deep black hole, where quite often you feel like the only person in the world, and can't cope with day to day decisions like which socks to wear, or even whether to get out of bed or not... when you can't cope with the idea of "self", it's a little much to be expected to cope with the idea of "others".

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by Desire
(quotes)

It's selfish of me to tell a friend I can't meet him tonight becuase I just don't feel like going out, and it's selfish of me to hide a sweater that's on sale in a different rail just so I can shop around and go back for it later....
(quotes)

I see your point, but they are hardly life or death situations.

That's very true. If one of my loved ones was to commit suicide, I'd like to think that I was strong enough to respect that decision. (quotes)

Well you are stronger than I would be.

.. and if you can deal with that, then you are one of the lucky ones.

I did'nt say that. I also said that I agree. If a person wants to take their own life then thats up to them. I'm just remembering what the nurse told my family after my mother died. "She's not suffering anymore. The only ones who are suffering are the people in this room" Nothing to do with suicide I admit, but once someone is dead for whatever reason they are DEAD! The rest of us have to deal.


IMHO this lack of understanding hasn't helped the 'stigma's that have become associtated with suicide in the past.

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I do understand. I'm just seeing it from a different angle.

Hmmm.

While in theory I would say that a person's life is their own to do with as they see fit, in practise I cannot understand or respect suicide.

I should probably state before I go any further that I have no experience of any close friends contemplating or carrying out a suicide attempt. Quite possibly I would see the issue differently if I had.

I see it as a particularly unncessary waste of life. I'm generally good at coping with death; even avoidable accidents are in part down to chance. Stuff happens, and it's nobody's fault. The idea that someone would deliberately take their own life isn't covered by this view-point. I would always be of the opinion that things would have improved, and that the taking of life was unnecessary.

And while the person involved may be beyond considering their actions selfish, that doesn't stop them being selfish. I have witnessed what was not a suicide attempt, but careless threatening, which at the time seemed more serious than it turned out to be. The effect on not only the friends of the person involved but incidental bystanders - of whom I was one - was great. People affect other people: you cannot live in the world and expect that your actions do not have consequences on others.

However, I do support euthanasia. I cannot rationally support the differing attitudes to both, except that I view physical and emotional pain very differently.

I was once told that suicide is an illness, a sickness of the mind.

Suicide is a hard subject to determin, unless you've been thru it you wont understand it. It is almost an illness, it takes over your mind. The 'final act' is seen as a release. The fact of wether it is right or not doens't come into it. You believe it is right for you at the time, and who's to say its not?

You dont think of who you are leaving behind, or you do but you feel its better for them that you go. I dont think that you can say suicide is right or not. What you may seem as something you can get thru, the person going thru it may not. I'm not saying everyone should give up, but sometimes its the only way, or its not giving up at all, its moving on in your own way.

I dont think people should be judged on the choices they make when it comes to suicide. They shoudl either judge themself or wait to be judged by whatever god or goddess or spirital leader or whoever they believe in. Or should they even be judged?

Euthanasia if a difficult subject, tho i feel that if the person is in a straight frame of mine, in alot of pain or very ill or whatever cercumstance i think it should be up to them. Not saying its right or wrong, thats just how i feel.

Why shouldn't people have the right to end their suffering without feeling they have done wrong?

Sorry if i've offended with this, its just my views
(has stooby check it before i posted to make sure it was ok)

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by Demona
Quite possibly I would see the issue differently if I had.

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In my own experience, I had similar opinions to you during the write up of my paper on suicide and parasuicide. I now feel very differently about it having had some experience.

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by Demona
I would always be of the opinion that things would have improved, and that the taking of life was unnecessary.

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It depends what you mean by 'things' improving. It is not just a situation that makes a person want to take their own life, it is a combination of physiological/mental and real life circumstances. One cannot improve without the other somehow changing for the better, and in these cases often neither is resolved. This is partly due to the fact that frequently people who would usually help a person out, are unfortunately totaly unaware of the situation. The person cannot help themselves, as Vix has described. (It's a whole chicken and egg thing.)

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by Demona
And while the person involved may be beyond considering their actions selfish, that doesn't stop them being selfish.

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Is it a selfish act? By definition, to act without consideration of others is selfishness. But to act considering the feelings of every single person in your universe (i.e. you - as many depressed people feel) is not a selfish act. It is not that you are failing to regard others, it is more that you fail to regard other people as entities. It is only the 'others' that consider suicide a selfish act. Does that count?

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by Demona
People affect other people: you cannot live in the world and expect that your actions do not have consequences on others.

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No, maybe you can't, but many depressed/suicidal people do live in the world being unaware of the fact that their actions have consequences, which is for them by default as if their actions are inconsequential.

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by Demona
I cannot rationally support the differing attitudes to both, except that I view physical and emotional pain very differently.

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In my experience, emotional pain is infinitely more unbearable than physical pain. I suppose that explains my differing opinion.