Welcome to New Britain - an unelected dictatorship/autocracy that makes Honecker's former DDR Stasi police state look like a model of freedom, and have the brass neck to tell us it's for our own good.

I didn't vote for Brown - neither did anyone else come to think of it, even his own party.

(there I go again)

I'm wondering how long it'll be before we try going this far, either for people heading in or people heading out.

It's amazing what people'll try to pass off as for our own good these days.

(Edited by Samanfur 15/03/2009 22:55)

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by P.J.Triumph
Welcome to New Britain - an unelected dictatorship/autocracy that makes Honecker's former DDR Stasi police state look like a model of freedom, and have the brass neck to tell us it's for our own good.

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So far as I'm aware the abolition of general elections isn't part of these plans. And police forces that can't even charge suspects without getting the nod from the CPS are a long way from The Lives of Others.

Hoarding travel details is part of Labour's abolition of privacy agenda, and their left-wing statism is as creepy as ever, but these plans are also farcical when you consider that, as an EU member, Britian has little control over its borders. It's tokenism. And like most anti-terrorism measures it'll be useless against terrorists, who are usually careful to have impeccable documents.

That last point was my reply to the multiple Americans who started screaming about "national security" when I questioned their wisdom on the above story. I'm more concerned about who's got access to my details than the government's idea of "safe" - we've been officially subject to terrorism for centuries, and I doubt that all of the people who're going to be looking after these details (if they don't leave them on a train somewhere) is going to be as thoroughly vetted as the public have the potential to be.

You're right in that it's got all of the weight of "British jobs for British workers", though (I had fun explaining to the armchair pundits in a Lancashire pub why that wouldn't work) - I'll be waiting for the first person to kick up enough fuss to take it to Strasbourg, and then we'll see how long it lasts.

(Edited by Samanfur 16/03/2009 17:37)

The British jobs for British workers protestors have a point -- when the economy's gone down the proverbial, it's no time to have an open-door labour policy. Certain jobs (especially low-skilled work) should only be given to foreign citizens if no British or Irish citizen or permanent resident is available, but that's impossible while we're in the EU.

The threat from terrorism is certainly increased -- we're not dealing with ruthless but rational Fenian bombers here -- but abolishing ancient liberties won't make us safer. The "debate" hinges around a false choice between freedom and safety. Liberty is security.

The government's priorities are wrong. We're in far more danger from "petty" crime than horrific but rare terrorist attacks. As with other "tough" measures like gun control and identity cards, this nonsense with border databases will affect law-abiding people more than it will criminals.

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The British jobs for British workers protestors have a point -- when the economy's gone down the proverbial, it's no time to have an open-door labour policy. Certain jobs (especially low-skilled work) should only be given to foreign citizens if no British or Irish citizen or permanent resident is available, but that's impossible while we're in the EU.

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I agree - but the context that I was working in at the time were people who didn't actually realise that EU regulations were involved, and wondered why Brown hadn't delivered what he promised.

The low-skilled jobs're a funny scenario. A lot of people I know have a threshold when it comes for what they're willing to do whilst looking for work. As much as migrant workers're willing to do some of the jobs our workers won't, it does make me wonder if it's encouraging too much pickiness - especially in the current climate.

And that's sidestepping the issue of being able to undercut on contracts.

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The threat from terrorism is certainly increased -- we're not dealing with ruthless but rational Fenian bombers here -- but abolishing ancient liberties won't make us safer. The "debate" hinges around a false choice between freedom and safety. Liberty is security.

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*nods*

I wasn't meaning to equate the two, but what I meant is that we're getting closer and closer to the extent of US' frantic knee-jerking after September 11th, and we've not got the same feeble excuse of it always having happened to everyone but us before. We don't just have infrastructure - we don't have that psychological separation from the idea.

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The government's priorities are wrong. We're in far more danger from "petty" crime than horrific but rare terrorist attacks. As with other "tough" measures like gun control and identity cards, this nonsense with border databases will affect law-abiding people more than it will criminals.

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Absolutely. It's all smoke and mirrors, and in the case of certain measures, you have to admit that they're things that our politicians've been looking for some sort of excuse to enact for a while, and they're freely spinning and exaggerating the threat.

Although sometimes it feels like the government'd rather be seen doing something, rather than just telling a few Chicken Littles to settle down. With Brown's popularity where it is, the lunatics can very easily start dictating policy in the asylum.

(Edited by Samanfur 17/03/2009 14:39)

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by Byron
(quotes)
So far as I'm aware the abolition of general elections isn't part of these plans.

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Shh, don't give them ideas

Hmm, what if its not planned, spur of the moment, are you allowed to email them from your phone, why cant they set up a text message system "I am leaving the country 4 Ireland"

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by Gopher
why cant they set up a text message system "I am leaving the country 4 Ireland"

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Because the idea is that they will be able to screen not only everyone entering the country but also who is leaving the country and if necessary prevent them from leaving. That's why it has to be done at least 24 hours in advance that way the police can be ready for you.

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by Gopher
Hmm, what if its not planned, spur of the moment, are you allowed to email them from your phone, why cant they set up a text message system "I am leaving the country 4 Ireland"

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Excellent point. So not only is it an invasion of privacy, it's a restriction on movement into the bargain.

The sooner this country is free of Labour and their left-wing authoritarian agenda the better. Sadly I doubt the Tories will be much better.

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by Byron
The sooner this country is free of Labour and their left-wing authoritarian agenda the better. Sadly I doubt the Tories will be much better.

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Plus that doesn't necessarily means any of the changes made now will be undone. As once you're in power yourself all this control all of a sudden become a lot more interesting and you have the best excuse ever: We didn't want it originally but now it's in place all this money has already been spent so it would be a waste to undo it all, as people are used to it now anyways.

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by Chambler
(quotes)
Plus that doesn't necessarily means any of the changes made now will be undone.

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Very true. Which is why groups like Liberty should be trying to extract some hard and fast promises from the Tories now, instead of wasting their time trying to get Labour to change its ways. Of course, Liberty is very left-leaning itself, so it's unlikely they'll change their strategy.

It's lucky this wasn't broughtin a few years ago as the number of times my brother has left the country differ from the number of times he has returned to the country (at least as far as customs are concerned) by a surprisingly large number.

It gets even more crazy on the Irish border, you live right on the border, your nearest petrol station/shop etc is on the other side of the border (and also probably cheaper), so do you go, popping to ireland to by a box of cornflakes will be 10 minutes 24 hours earlier, some farms actually straddle the border and are in fact in both the Republic and in the UK, so do you go, going to bring my cows to my milking barn so crossing the border to herd cattle to be milked. Its insane. I have even heard of one person whose farmhouse is on both side of the border, so will they get a crossing the border to have a crap every 24 hours

(Edited by Gopher 23/03/2009 11:49)