Tangent 21 - Buffy Ep 20

Posted by
Sydney

Posted on
21:52
May 16 2002

Buffy Ep 20 - Villains

OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!

That was amazing. I can't believe how scary that episode of Buffy was. Talk about making your blood run cold. (And that was - no doubt - the edited version) plus we are obviously coming to the "lets blow all the special effects budget coz there's only two eps left" stage. Which is good.

Ok, where to start?

Alyson Hannigan was amazing in this episode. The range of emotions displayed from dispair to anger to absolute fury to cold determination was chillingly authentic. I wouldn't fancy getting in the way.

Had to laugh at Andrew and Johnathan discussing Matthew Broderick - but immediately felt guilty laughing at such a dark episode.

My heart went out to Dawn when she discovered Tara's body. Hasn't the poor girl been through enough?

Had to say that given everything else that was going on Spikes little dallience with the nasty demon didn't interest me in the slightest. Who cares when Willow's going Psycho Hose Beast on everybody?!?

The piece de resitance has to be the final scenes in the woods. Not sure I wanna see the uncut version. That was bad enough i can't believe that Willow would do something *that* bad no matter how hurt and bent on vengence she was.

Then there's the matter of her final words. "One down." So, the implication of this is "Two to go" and the obvious meaning is that she's going after Johnathan and Andrew (But they didn't do anything much - poor johnathan) A more sinister meaning could be 'one down' as in Willow has sucumbed to the Dark Side and Buffy and Xander could soon follow - Or am I reading too much into this?

I soooooooooooo can't wait for next week. I hope sky shows the finale as a single episode.

Definately interested to hear the opinions of others on this, particularly those who have considered this a weak season.

42 Replies and 10347 Views in Total. [ 1 2 3 ]

Avenger "Watching stuff is better than doing stuff" - Homer Simpson

by Sydney
Then there's the matter of her final words. "One down." So, the implication of this is "Two to go" and the obvious meaning is that she's going after Johnathan and Andrew (But they didn't do anything much - poor johnathan) A more sinister meaning could be 'one down' as in Willow has sucumbed to the Dark Side and Buffy and Xander could soon follow - Or am I reading too much into this?

My immediate reaction was that it means the second thing. I don't see why Willow would have any interest in Andrew and Jonathon - they were already inside when Warren when loco with the gun. And like she said, she's not planning on coming back....

Posted: 21:59 May 16 2002

Red "A world of No!"

Fantastic episode! Agree with everything Sydney said.

One thing ... Warrens chest. How hairy???

Posted: 22:07 May 16 2002

KieranFrost "In my house, anyone who uses one word when they could have used ten, simply isn't trying hard enough." Bartlet

"One down..."

Wow!
I see that and raise you a OH MY HOLY HOLY GOD AMOUNGST THE STARS

So amazing on every level, I personally think it means the other two in the trio, it would be far more sinister, if Willow killed them, because they are bascially innocent.

by Red
One thing ... Warrens chest. How hairy???

I know, EEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!! Shave much

Alyson Hannigan is even more amazing, I love her absorbing the words of the books and she REALLY is scary with the cloths and the hair. SCARY yet still SOOO fine.

Can't wait till next week.

And yes, the bit with Spike was annoying. Willow going evil, Spike mooding, hmmmm.... which is more interesting?

Posted: 22:49 May 16 2002

Keenangel *Fourteen phonecalls a night??!!*

This was just simply an awesome episode. From start to finish. Evil Willow... her transformation was stunning to watch, right down to the hair colour change.. yikes!!..

And Red, i totally agree with you about Warren's chest hair!!.. yeuchh!!!..

I'm so looking forward to the last couple of episodes (which i think are being shown separately...)

Posted: 23:14 May 16 2002

TheFly

Here are the details of the extensive cuts Sky made tonight:

1) Cuts made to the "Previously..." section to reflect the cuts made last week - this was to be expected.
2) A line of dialogue cut from the Jonathon/Andrew conversation - "I think he wants to make me his butt-monkey" (or similar).
3) When Willow "kills" the Warren-bot, you should see the eye pop out before the robot falls to the ground. This was cut.
4) The final scene between Warren and Willow was cut extensively. It's pretty much impossible to list everything here in detail... a lot of Willow's bullet-torture was removed, as well as her removing Warren's skin (which you briefly got to see the aftermath of).

Like last week, I have put the cut scenes together into an .rm file, but I have been advised to seek the permission of the admins here before posting the link (these being family-friendly forums). So, if a friendly staff member would like to give the OK, I'll post the URL...

Posted: 23:52 May 16 2002

White Hart So long, and thanks for all the fish.

That was stunning! I was left speechless by it.

Most of what I thought has been said already - and I think the final scene was chilling enough with cuts, thank you...I'm with whoever thought that the 'two to go' will be Jonathan and Andrew - who *are* innocent, but she no longer cares.

Did anyone else feel a nasty thrill of recognition at VampWillow's 'Bored now...' coming from the Willow we know and love? Proof if needed, I think, that she's not just angry, the magic has turned her evil...

And on a totally shallow note - I SO want to look like that!!

Posted: 00:28 May 17 2002

ROMBA

A good episode.
Why wasn't Amber credited for this episode?
Thought it was terrible the way Tara was left for Dawn to find.
Willow going all vengency was understandable.
Tara dead,completely sucks!
Her death was senseless. Especially as Amber didn't want to leave.

Posted: 08:33 May 17 2002

Sydney You can lead the whore to culture but you can't make her think!

To be honest i don't think any of us were surprised that the flaying was cut from the final scene, given whats been cut in the past, this was far worse. I'd have probably been writing to Sky to complain myself if they had left it in.

What they showed was freaky enough and as we are all aware Buffy's audience does include a lot of younger people and i wouldn't feel comfortable with anyone under the age of 16 seeing that scene in its full gory detail (I know I sound like a prude, but really i'm not - there is a reason for video certification and this really is just an extension of that)

This is gonna sound really hideous and make people think i'm a psycho or something but i was mulling this episode over last night and it struck me exactly how grusome the method Willow used on Warren was. Ok, the bullet torture was bad enough but she could have killed him like that. Flaying leaves the victim alive until the shock hits the system - Definately pure EVIL

not just 'i'm hurt and i'm gonna kill you coz i'm really angry' That's what disturbs me the most. There definately ain't no coming back for Willow from this.

And i agree withthe comments on how cool willow looked. Don't we all wish we looked like that!

Posted: 09:12 May 17 2002

TheFly

by ROMBA
Tara dead,completely sucks!
Her death was senseless.

Isn't that kinda the whole point?

Interesting to see that the general feeling here seems to be pro-censorship. I agree that there are some things which should not be seen by young children, but there is absolutely nothing to stop Sky from moving Buffy to a later timeslot or showing an uncut repeat - it's not like their schedule is crammed full of other quality programming. And disturbing though the uncut scenes from Buffy may be, it is only in unexpurgated form that the viewer can fully reevaluate the character in question the way the writer intended. At the end of the day, Buffy is not a children's programme, regardless of the ages of the people who actually watch it. If it can be shown uncut at 8pm in the US, then there's no reason why the same could not be done here.

(Edited by TheFly 17/05/2002 09:20)

Posted: 09:18 May 17 2002

The Prophet "We bonded over a shared love of barbiturates and obsessive-compulsive behaviour."

As well as being Vamp Willow's line, "bored now" just so clearly stated that she wasn't doing it for love, or hate, or vengeance when she actually killed Warren, but just because she _could_.

'Two to go' was left unsaid after 'one down'. Anyone else reckon that's because ,with vengeance no longer the motive, there's a lot more than two left to be killed. Even all darked up, Willow came back to save Buffy, which suggests that in part she still sees herself as the good guy.

This does not bode well for the monsters of Sunnydale.

Spike's little field trip may become important later on, but for now it felt like set-up shoved in so that the regular cast member was appearing in the episode. Although I do want to know when he swapped the Hellion's motorbike for Sirius Black's to get to Africa that fast.

As for Amber not being in the credits? Well, she was only there in the first place to mess with our heads (as is Joss' wont).

(Edited by The Prophet 17/05/2002 10:02)

Posted: 10:01 May 17 2002

Stoo There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.

by TheFly
So, if a friendly staff member would like to give the OK, I'll post the URL...

*Nods* Okay

Posted: 10:17 May 17 2002

TheFly

OK, here's the link:

members.lycos.co.uk/genericspace/6x20cuts.rm

The file is a bit larger this week - about 8.4mb.

Posted: 10:34 May 17 2002

White Hart So long, and thanks for all the fish.

by The Prophet
As well as being Vamp Willow's line, "bored now" just so clearly stated that she wasn't doing it for love, or hate, or vengeance when she actually killed Warren, but just because she _could_.

Which is *exactly* what VampWillow would have done. It seems to me that Willow's character in this ep was pretty much VampWillow unvamped. She's not just a majorly naffed-off Wicca with a grudge. She enjoyed torturing Warren to death, and I agree with Sydney that the method she chose was pure evil. (Especially as I just went and read the shooting script - yikes! I *so* don't want to see that uncut!)

I still think the 'two to go' are Jonathan and Andrew. They may not have been directly involved, but they were Warren's gang, and my feeling is she'll go after them. I got the impression when she said she wasn't coming back that she wanted to wreak her vengeance and then cease to exist in a world without Tara, but I suppose it's possible that life as Willow - Scourge of (perceived) Evil would be tempting.

by The Prophet
Even all darked up, Willow came back to save Buffy, which suggests that in part she still sees herself as the good guy.

I think she does, but not for that reason. She feels she's meting out justice and ignoring all the cautions Buffy cited about why it's wrong to apply the same standards to demons and humans. But I was thinking about the parallels between VampWillow and Dark Willow, and one of Willow's strongest character traits has always been a great loyalty to her friends - remember how concerned VampWillow was about VampXander? I don't think she saved Buffy becasue it was a good thing, but because Buffy was her friend (actually, pretty much the same reasoning as the resurrection when you think about it - all that 'I won't let my best friend languish in some hell dimension'?)

BTW, was it you who once said that you thought Willow could end up like Galadriel if she'd taken the Ring? Because I can kind of see that in this.

Posted: 13:57 May 17 2002

The Prophet "We bonded over a shared love of barbiturates and obsessive-compulsive behaviour."

by White Hart
(quotes)

I think she does, but not for that reason. She feels she's meting out justice and ignoring all the cautions Buffy cited about why it's wrong to apply the same standards to demons and humans. But I was thinking about the parallels between VampWillow and Dark Willow, and one of Willow's strongest character traits has always been a great loyalty to her friends - remember how concerned VampWillow was about VampXander? I don't think she saved Buffy becasue it was a good thing, but because Buffy was her friend (actually, pretty much the same reasoning as the resurrection when you think about it - all that 'I won't let my best friend languish in some hell dimension'?)

True. But she did also seem to have some expectation that Buffy and Xander would be helping her to kill Warren, as she had come to see that as the right and necessary thing.

I'm put in mind of Rack's comment to Warren: "She's going to tear this town apart; starting with you."

BTW, was it you who once said that you thought Willow could end up like Galadriel if she'd taken the Ring? Because I can kind of see that in this.

Pretty sure that was me; yup. It all fits the form: Galadriel asserted that all would love her and despair,and I'm pretty sure there's a few people I know wouldn't mind being Dark Willow's bitch.

Hem.

Or, it's possible you meant the possible quest to make the world a better place by scouring it clean.

Tough on evil; tough on the causes of evil.

Posted: 14:11 May 17 2002

maisie19 Order is the Chaos we make familiar

by Sydney
OH MY GOD!

Exactly. I was so shell shocked after this I had to pause for a while before fast forwarding to Angel!

by White Hart
Did anyone else feel a nasty thrill of recognition at VampWillow's 'Bored now...' coming from the Willow we know and love? Proof if needed, I think, that she's not just angry, the magic has turned her evil...

Ooo yeah I thought 'I've heard that before...' and when I realised where, a wee chill ran down my spine!

I think we have lost our Willow as well as Tara... They do like to mess with our heads, don't they!? And the skinning thing...bleurgh. V nasty.

Not sure I really want to see the detailed version myself.

Posted: 14:15 May 17 2002

Astronut What I wouldn't give for a lasso and some crazy glue...

by The Prophet
Or, it's possible you meant the possible quest to make the world a better place by scouring it clean.

Just had exactly the same thought myself

This was an absolutely stunning episode... From Willow's actually hurting the manifestation of Osiris before the credits, through her sweeping aside Anya and draining the books, and Dawn discovering Tara, to Warren's initial bragging of his "exploit", subsequent panic and then not understanding what he'd done. And then we got Willow's vengeance...

"One down" was significant, but "bored now" had an impact on me that ranked with Angel's "you're all fired." Bear in mind Angel's comment that much of the personality of a vampire's former life survives...

I think this one struck me particularly hard, because after last week's episode, I had a pretty good idea what would happen in this episode. I've said all along that Willow was going to be the "Big Bad" even when they completely sidelined her recovery. And it panned out much as I expected - then they went one step further. I'd expected a brief explanation of her need for vengeance to Warren, followed by his being smeared across the landscape - what we saw took me completely by surprise.

I'm not sure Willow's completely gone - she is still human and therefore capable of redemption within the show's logic, but it would be a long haul. I don't like the idea of them resolving it all within a couple of episodes - I hope it will go on into the next season.

Incidentally my opinion is that the unspoken "two to go" are Andrew and Jonathan. It certainly explained the choice of name for the next episode...

Of course, this is how I've been hoping Star Wars Episode III would look (with lightsabers and the like obviously) - if Lucas does so now, he'll look like he's plagiarising (and he's never done that before

)...

Posted: 15:27 May 17 2002

Rae Your imitation of my walk, and the perfect way you talk. It's just a couple of the million things, that i love about you.

wow...wow...wow

i like evil willow....except the horrible way of killing warren..she said "bored now!"

the spike scene didn't seem to fit with the rest of the episode but was interesting.

can't wait for next week!!!i thought the "one down" thing might be to do with Xander and Bbuff rather than Johnathan and Andrew...i felt so sorry for dawn when she was sitting rocking in Willows room aftre finding the body...it was so sad when she said she didn't want to leave her alone. Grrr at Spike not being there when dawn needs him...i get the leaving cos of Buffy but it was implied that Spike had been caring for dawn when Buffy was dead so it was a natural conclusion for ehr to feel safe there. I love Clem

i could just hug him to death

Posted: 16:17 May 17 2002

Milky "Busted - Now that you're gone, I'm sleeping with the light on..." Pof, 2005

Well I wasn't as impressed with this episode as everyone else seemed to be..maybe because I was just back from watching SW EP2:AOTC at the cinema and my mind was still buzzing from that. Everyone seem's to be fixating on the "One down.."line and coming up with "..two to go" but for all we know it could be "..one to go" as in Willow herself!! She already said she wasn't coming back..what if she's off to change herself or change the world to allow herself to be with Tara?? She could be going after others who have hurt her friends eg Spike after last weeks attack on Buffy.

On the Spike note, he's going to take some challenges so that the demon will give him something...now it looks like he's doing it to get his chip removed but what if he was actually doing these trials so that he could get a soul!! It would help him solve the problems that he has with Buffy and maybe bring them closer together. He would understand why/when he was hurting her etc..it's possible and something I'd love to see.

Also remember at the start of the season we were complaining about the amount of Scooby's...anyone feel the same way now?? Giles has gone to England, Tara is dead, Anya has returned to being a Vengeance Demon, Spike's gone off to do something, Willow's went wacko leaving just Buffy, Xander and Dawn. Some change..anyone would think Mr Whedon's been lurking in here

Have to say I really like the Clem character..and ow Warren's death had to have hurt...

Looking forward to next weeks episode but only because I'm hoping it'll be better than this weeks.

Posted: 17:21 May 17 2002

Miss Edith People don't fall in love with what's right in front of them. People want the dream -- what they can't have. The more unattainable, the more attractive. --Xander

Loved it!

Evil Willow is back! Yay!!

"Bored now" was a brilliant touch. One of my all time favorite lines.

Posted: 18:40 May 17 2002

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