Yep, about another six months

Was a very good finale i thought.

Willow reaching into Giles's chest.. like yikes!!!

And you know, first episode we see Buffy climb out of her grave, and what does the season end on??.. yep, Buffy climbing out of a grave.

The thing with Spike had me thinking about theAngel s2 ep "The Trial" and the stuff he had to go through to save Darla.. and Spike has a soul now?.. so Angel, but interesting to see, as he obviously/probably won't have the guilt trip going for him.




(Edited by Keenangel 31/05/2002 00:03)

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by Keenangel

And you know, first episode we see Buffy climb out of her grave, and what does the season end on??.. yep, Buffy climbing out of a grave.

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Well observed!! I hope this time her head is really cleared and a bit more lightness creeps into series 7.

BTW as she climbs out is that song playing being sung by Sarah McLachlan? She who also sang out on the end of series 2!

I'm still not sure what I thought of this episode overall.

Xander saving the world - nice that he finally got his big moment. It seemed kinda corny that he could stop Willow just by saying he loved her - but then it still had me sniffling

It's been such a disjointed season, so I guess it had to be a disjointed finale. It wasn't just Willow who went wrong, I think all of the Scoobies lost the plot a bit, but now Buffy is glad to be alive and reconciled to the need to stand on her own, and able to see Dawn as a person not just a kid sister, Xander's normality is seen to have a place in the Scoobies, Willow is off the magic from the looks of it.

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by Alf
I thought Dawn or Xander would stop Willow

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Dawn tried last week. I think her supernatural origins precluded it.

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by Keenangel
And you know, first episode we see Buffy climb out of her grave, and what does the season end on??.. yep, Buffy climbing out of a grave.

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I liked that. It brought the season full circle, as well as being her true symbolic rebirth. It was a most certainly significant that the first time she came out to darkness and this time to sunshine. There were loads of references back to earlier episodes though - Willow saying 'I need a little pick-me-up', which was a line of Glory's, was the most obvious, but I'm sure there were others.

And Spike with a soul - hmmm. I thought he was going to become human. And surely after 'Seeing Red' half the Scoobies would just stake him on sight before he had a chance to demonstrate that he had a soul?

I liked this episode a lot but I knew what was going to happen because I read the ep. guide on buffy.com!

6 months till season 7???
how will I cope???

8.5/10

Thought this was a good episode. Didn't think it was like a finale though.
Thought Buffy and Giles' laughter very inappropriate.
Didn't find Xander talking Willow out of her vengency ways very convincing.
Spike getting his soul back was interesting.
Aly's acting was great.

I am sooooooo glad that we now have a normal willow - she just doesn't work when she's trying to make evil comments. Most of her snidy remarks just grated on me.

Loved the mirroring of the first ep with Buffy climbing out of the ground like that. I can finally see how season 7 can be a return to the sense of earlier seasons (If the rumours are true)as in Buffy being much happier with her lot in life as the slayer and not constantly whinging.

I actually thought that Giles and Buffy creased in laughter was appropriate for this episode. It signalled a release for them both. It was hysterical laughter not 'i find this funny' laughter and it served the same function as having a damn good cry would.

Willow breaking down at the end and finally crying over Tara (at least that's my interpretation of it) was heart aching, I felt that it was so right that it was Xander who was there for her and helped her tap into that spark of humanity.

Can't wait for season 7 - anyone got a TARDIS i can borrow?

I was SOOO disappointed with this episode, I'm sorry, but I was. I'm an ardent fan of Buffy, I felt Series 5, despite what other's felt, was the best series, but never have I been more shocked at how terrible Buffy was, until 'Grave'.

1) I really couldn't care less about Spike, I hate the 'tag on moments' with him. Let's hope he's staked off camera before season 7.

2) The 'satanic temple' COME ON!!!! Willow's [hacked] off, not a satanist. Plus, the "oh there's a satanic end of the world temple" tag on, nice touch

3) It made sense Willow slipped up due to Tara's death, it made sense she would abuse magic to have revenge. BUT in this episode, all that disappeared. She wanted Jonathan and Andrew to die slowly, but ended up torturing Giles, who she couldn't care less about and sent a 'fireball' after the two nerds. It's just totally inappropriate.

4) Joss Whedon uses Buffy to become all famous and then abandons it, not even coming back to write or direct the finale... glad Fireflies was a MASSIVE flop

5) Was it me, or was the dialogue REALLY terrible

7) I'm sick on the writers not having the guts to kill off a character. Giles 'dies' in SOO many now, stop using that!!!!



Okay, what really annoys me about the episode, is that there were moments I liked. Which meant it wasn't hopeless, it had a chance, but to me, it emphasises how much the writers blew it. I liked Willow collapsing into Xander, the one person who, appropriatly, should bring her back from darkness (parallel to Willow bringing Buffy back). I liked Anya staying with Giles while he died and her sitting on the steps, thinking he's dead (but he wasn't, ruined the entire good bit). I loved the song and I liked the reason to why Willow was defeated. BUT the ruined it with terrible writing, dialoge and crab zombies, TACKY.

*
One star, worst finale ever

edited for language - Pegasus

(Edited by Pegasus 31/05/2002 12:50)

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by White Hart
I'm still not sure what I thought of this episode overall.

Xander saving the world - nice that he finally got his big moment. It seemed kinda corny that he could stop Willow just by saying he loved her - but then it still had me sniffling

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Xander and Giles. Let's not underestimate Giles' contribution in providing the magic and the sacrifice which resparked her humanity enough for Xander to reach her.

But what I think was important was not just that Xander loved her - so did Giles, and Buffy, and Dawn - but that he _always_ had done. To Xander - even when he was busily not noticing she fancied him - she was never just a loser nerd; she was his best friend, and he loved her from the first day of kindergarten.

He reminded her that she wasn't _just_ what Tara saw in her, but what her friends saw as well. She was the President and Secretary of the 'We Hate Cordelia Club' (I assume), and she was always the one that Xander chose to hang out with.

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It's been such a disjointed season, so I guess it had to be a disjointed finale. It wasn't just Willow who went wrong, I think all of the Scoobies lost the plot a bit, but now Buffy is glad to be alive and reconciled to the need to stand on her own, and able to see Dawn as a person not just a kid sister, Xander's normality is seen to have a place in the Scoobies, Willow is off the magic from the looks of it.

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Yes. No longer The Waltons with more monsters, BtVS is now more like The Sons of Katie Elder, with more monsters. And fewer of them dying. Or maybe the TV show version of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers?

As I said in the Series 7 thread, this seems to have been Giles' coda, more than his return. Had he died, it would have been thematically appropriate, if a total bummer, because he was coming back to give his children the closure they needed to grow up. So we saw Buffy becoming an adult, Xander realising his own worth, Willow her limits.

And also Anya, realising that after three years, she is well and truly a part of the human world. Vengeance demon though she is, she was truly concerned that Giles shouldn't die alone, which I found quite moving.

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I liked that. It brought the season full circle, as well as being her true symbolic rebirth. It was a most certainly significant that the first time she came out to darkness and this time to sunshine.

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They've always been good at the thematic cycles in Buffy and Angel. As I said, I half expected the climactic scene to take place at Buffy's grave site, but it was close enough.

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And Spike with a soul - hmmm. I thought he was going to become human. And surely after 'Seeing Red' half the Scoobies would just stake him on sight before he had a chance to demonstrate that he had a soul?

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Well, I still hope that he will be human, because thematically it would screw with Angel for there to be another vampire with a soul; especially one with no drawbacks. Also, you're wrong about the Scoobies, because I doubt there's one of them that - let alone half - that wouldn't stake Spike on the spot now. If on the other hand, he shows up in broad daylight, he might get a chance to speak his piece.

Mind you, I have some doubts as to whether the ensouled Spike - human or otherwise - would actively pursue Buffy after what he did. Even as a vampire he was suffering some level of guilt over the attack; with a soul, he can understand the extremity of his transgression.

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by Sydney
actually thought that Giles and Buffy creased in laughter was appropriate for this episode. It signalled a release for them both. It was hysterical laughter not 'i find this funny' laughter and it served the same function as having a damn good cry would.

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Especially apt as when the world didn't end, Buffy's reaction was to weep for the joy and relief.

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Willow breaking down at the end and finally crying over Tara (at least that's my interpretation of it) was heart aching, I felt that it was so right that it was Xander who was there for her and helped her tap into that spark of humanity.

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I hadn't thought it, but you're right. She raged straight off after Tara died. There was a moment of hysterical pleading, but I don't think she shed a tear until now. And it certainly was right that it be Xander; he is the heart after all.

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by Alf
but this is the finale Buffy had a minor role in.

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And I for one am glad to see it. There have been several occasions where I've felt that Buffy gets the save because it's her show, and that this downplayed the supporting cast. It's way better than many action series, where the entire ensemble is just there to make the hero look extra cool by being a bit naff, but from time to time it was there.

The Scoobies have always been incredible characters, and have done incredible things, especially Xander, and also Giles and Season 1-3 Willow, who really didn't have much power at all. Then every time they have an episode about them feeling sidelined, someone says how they never help, neglecting to mention that without Xander's help, everyone would have died in Season 1.

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by Alf
Is the powerful woman Buffy refers to the next Slayer??!!

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While it's possible - and I'll say now that I'm against it, because a) I feel that by the end of S7 Dawn would be too old to be called, b) that would mean Faith would have to die, and her story doesn't feel done, and c) it seems to me, so very boring - I certainly don't think it's what Buffy meant. She just meant that she hadn't realised before that Dawn is not fragile, and moreover that _humans_ aren't fragile. Sure, in the Slayer scale of things, Dawn and Xander are pretty breakable, but they're not helpless, and they can hold their own if given a chance.

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by KieranFrost
1) I really couldn't care less about Spike, I hate the 'tag on moments' with him. Let's hope he's staked off camera before season 7.

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With you on that one.

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2) The 'satanic temple' COME ON!!!! Willow's pissed off, not a satanist. Plus, the "oh there's a satanic end of the world temple" tag on, nice touch

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'Willow doesn't live here any more'. The dark magics she's been using have effectively taken over her body.

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3) It made sense Willow slipped up due to Tara's death, it made sense she would abuse magic to have revenge. BUT in this episode, all that disappeared. She wanted Jonathan and Andrew to die slowly, but ended up torturing Giles, who she couldn't care less about and sent a 'fireball' after the two nerds. It's just totally inappropriate.

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Inappropriate to what? She abused magic, she killed another human in cold blood, and those were the consequences. She became something that was almost unrecognisable from the Willow we know and love.

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4) Joss Whedon uses Buffy to become all famous and then abandons it, not even coming back to write or direct the finale... glad Fireflies was a MASSIVE flop

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by Joss Whedon
Fact is, I'm in this show up to my neck always. Same With Angel and yup, Firefly too. And I've read that I've blown off one for the other -- He's over Buffy, Firefly is just a contractual obligation, he didn't even CREATE the Rockford Files, why's he taking credit for it... I've heard it all. And it ain't necessarily so. Marti (She of the great brain and great beauty) and I shaped this year very carefully, and while we made mistakes (as we do every year), we made our show. We explored what we wanted to, said what we meant. You don't have to like it, but don't think it comes from neglect. That would give me hurty feelings.

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Posted on the Bronze after this aired in the US. There's some other interesting stuff, which I may put in a different thread. And Firefly? I dunno if you noticed, but it's several months from even airing. Rumour is that the pilot wasn't terribly well received, but it has been comissioned, and given that Tim Minear is going to be co-executive producer, I'm going to reserve judgment on whether it's a flop til I actually see the thing.

I was disappointed by lack of Joss episodes this year, too, but personally, I prefer this to 'The Gift'.

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5) Was it me, or was the dialogue REALLY terrible

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Well, I liked it.

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7) I'm sick on the writers not having the guts to kill off a character. Giles 'dies' in SOO many now, stop using that!!!!

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Yeah, cos they've never dared do that have they.

Well I loved it. First up, Giles. The 'hair' moment. He and Buffy in fits of laughter - totally inappropriate, and yet somehow it just felt right. What other reaction could he have? The general air of authority he brings. The scenes with Anya towards the end. It's all fantastic.

Buffy - the fact that she plays a minimal role in the whole thing. The stuff she did have, well, agreed the demon things were pretty poor, but I liked the bonding stuff with Dawn. It seems like we're finally past the whiny-Dawn stuff, and not before time.

Willow - superbly played by Alyson Hannigan, as ever. While the transformation from 'pissed off cos her girlfriends dead' to 'out to destroy the world' was very rapid, I thought she held it all together and kept it believable at every stage. The final scenes with Xander had me blubbing, because everything he said - "I love crayon-breaking Willow. And I love scary veiny Willow" - I felt too. Ultimately, it's the realisation that, whatever's happened this season, I really, really care about these characters. Oh, and no-one does teary breakdowns quite like Aly.

This episode left me more excited about seeing what happens next than any of the previous season finales. It's as much a new beginning as it is an end to the season. And for me, that makes it a classic.

(Edited by In a State of Dan 31/05/2002 11:14)

Well I'm in the mixed feelings category

On the one hand, the story was exactly what it should have been: Giles' reappearance and explanation for his power; Buffy's sidelining; Xander's finally getting to save the world directly; and the nature of Willow's ultimate "defeat" by the mundane. They were all exactly what I would have wanted.

On the other hand, it felt extremely rushed. Not in execution, but in pacing. We went from Giles trying to stop Willow, to Willow draining his power, to Willow transferring her attention to destroying the world, to Giles explaining his plan, to Xander stopping her in the space of thirty-odd minutes. I felt this should have been several episodes worth of material. It was too fast!

Sidelining Buffy was definitely a good idea, but the appearance of the clawed creatures seemed a little over the top. It was worth it for Dawn's metamorphosis though - "What, did you think I never watched you?" If we are looking at Dawn becoming a "powerful woman" - it's definitely not the Slayer. The Slayer line is on hold with Faith at the moment. Dawn has the potential to be something else, and I think that may be on the cards for the future.

The Destruction of the World thing was definitely ott, and seemed out of character even for Dark Willow. I'd have expected her to be attempting the "good fairy" approach - trying to fix everyone's problems, before finally deciding that ending it all made more sense. As I said, rushed pacing.

Definitely not happy with the Spike developments. He gets a soul back just by meeting some physical trials? Definitely cheapens Angel's own quest. Although on the other hand - who said getting his soul back makes him a good guy? To me the whole Spike subplot is obviously setting up next season - one way or another Spike is the new bad guy... again!

This episode was well done. What I found most interesting, was that the tower had the Jewish Symbol, the star of David on it. Was that somehow linked to Willow being Jewish or something?

However, I think it was a bit of an anticlimax after last weeks episode.

Two to go gets 9.5 - grave gaets 8

Was not perfect - but worked. David Fury and Marti Noxon Did these episodes didn't they?

Definately the best episodes they've done this season.

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by TinnionA97
Was not perfect - but worked. David Fury and Marti Noxon Did these episodes didn't they?

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Nope. Doug Petrie did 'Two to Go'. Marti did 'Villains', which wasn't anywhere near as good as the last two.

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by TinnionA97
This episode was well done. What I found most interesting, was that the tower had the Jewish Symbol, the star of David on it. Was that somehow linked to Willow being Jewish or something?

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Just for clarification, it wasn't a star of David (which has 6 points), it was a pentagram, which has 5, and is considered to be a very powerful magical symbol.

While I don't think this finale was in the same league as "Becoming", I still enjoyed it (despite an "oh no!" gasp when I saw that Joss hadn't written it).
I loved the Giles/Willow interaction and the scene between Willow and Xander had me in floods. And I am so looking forward to next season now.

In fact, the only part that truly grated was the daft underground monster thingies.
And I don't think Spike with a soul

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by Astronut
cheapens Angel's own quest

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Angel didn't ask for a soul, received one by happy chance and now is treading the path towards redemption. It must be a first for a vampire to actually request a soul (although maybe accidentally!) And I don't think Spike has any interest in redemption. I trust Joss to have something far more exciting planned than another broody, agonized vamp-with-a-soul (much as i liked the last one....)

Angel was punished for all his past misdeeds by being given a soul, and to remember the pain and suffering of all his victims, to suffer for all eternity.(not "happy chance" i think ). Now he's working towards his redemption.

And Spike... the impression i got was that he wanted to be "evil Spike", the way he was before he was chipped.. not possessing a soul. I must admit, i think it takes away Angel's "uniqueness" of being the only vampire with a soul, but i must admit, Season 7 is definitely going to be interesting to see Spike having a soul, and how it'll "work" in context to Angel having a soul.. (he being full of remorse and all of that)

i liked...i think. The buffy/giles laughter bit was good...they seemed more relaxed and lesss anxious about each ohter, and besides laughter gets mroe histerical in inappropriate times,as we saw.

i thought the xander/willow bit up when he said about loving yellow crayon willow and veiny willow was weet.. made me go 'aw'..the next bit where he kept on saying 'i love you' was a bit cliched but as one of my msn buds said, it could have been so much worse. The moment when willows hair changed abkc to red was very cool, and the hug between her and xander reminded me of old times. i forget that they were meant to ahve been friends since they were tiny sometimes.

The buffy/dawn scene was annoying. i don't really like dawn and it was quite irriatatin how Buffy seemed to be ahving as much trouble wiht her demon as dawn. dawn patrolling and stuff...

y'know i think after watching this episode Anya and Giles would make a sweet couple. I think anyas been less annoying now shes a vemngence demon again...she seems less lost and more confident, also less tactless. But she does tend to remind me of the cat in the hat sometimes. she had the whole dr suess style thing going on in Villians when she was trying to get the guard to release jonathon and andrew.

Episode rocked

Dawn came of age. Great character.

Giles and Anya - great scenes. But as a couple?? No!!! I think Anya realised what a great guy Xander was at the end of the ep.

Brilliant scene between Willow and Xander.

Wha can I say except that it was a great end to a very well done season. Like Dan said, I really care for these characters and can't help but be moved by what happens to them and can't wait till S7

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by White Hart
(quotes)

Just for clarification, it wasn't a star of David (which has 6 points), it was a pentagram, which has 5, and is considered to be a very powerful magical symbol.

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Absolutely. Moreover, it was an _inverted_ pentagram - equilateral 5-pointed star, set in a circle, with the points on the circumference and a single point downwards - which is a symbol of dark magic. The other way up - single point upwards - the pentagram is considered a white magic symbol, and is in fact associated with a number of forms of Wicca.

Not that any of this will stop people who see you wearing either one asking: "Are you Jewish".

Also, the Star of David is, I believe, the symbol of Israel and the Jewish people, rather than of Judaism as a religion.

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by In a State of Dan
This episode left me more excited about seeing what happens next than any of the previous season finales. It's as much a new beginning as it is an end to the season. And for me, that makes it a classic.

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I couldn't put it any better - this is exactly how I felt about the episode.

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Alf
BTW as she climbs out is that song playing being sung by Sarah McLachlan? She who also sang out on the end of series 2!

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I'm fairly certain it is, I have a few of that lady's CDs. I didn't recognise the song but I recognised the singer.

Roll on January anyway!





(Edited by maisie19 05/06/2002 15:30)