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Cheers RW! I'm still a tad confused - I really need to brush up on my Buffyology! <off to read some episode guides!!> 
Posted: 20:31 May 31 2002
...what a wet blanket he was when human...
I was having a text discussion about Spike's New Soul with Trinity, until she said "...what a wet blanket he was when human..." about Spike, and mentioned Angel being ansty & brooding. It got me thinking, so I ended up sending an e-mail to explain why Spike might not be so wet with a soul. And *then* I thought, "I wonder what the on-line guys would think of my theories...?" So here they are, be gentle with me?
(Also, please bear in mind Trinity isn't quite the Buffaholic I am, which is why I go into some depth about some of the episodes when a lot of us might automatically know what episode/scene/character I was talking about.)
...In 'Doppelgangland' (season 3), the episode where an evil, vampire Willow from an alternate reality appeared in Sunnydale, *our* Willow said she thought her double was 'kinda gay'. Angel started to explain (but was hushed up by Buffy) that the demon inside can often bring out repressed feelings, urges & tendancies.
At the time of this episode Joss was planning for A Scooby to be gay in the future, but hadn't decided who. Seth Green (Oz)'s departure for Big Screen Glory during season 4 left Willow single and the Tara storyline was introduced. It's sheer synchronicity that this was the character who's 'Evil Twin' appeared to be 'kinda gay', but the season 3 episode did genuinely introduce the 'Buffyverse vampire fact' that the beast shows sides that the human had, but had repressed.
This is also shown in 'Helpless', the (season 3?) episode where Buffy hits her 18th birthday. The Watchers Council turns up and puts her through the Cruxiamentum, a (supposedly controlled) test where her Slayer abilities are supressed by injections administered while Buffy was in a trance. The Monster of The Week was Kralick, a vampire who was insane when human, and had *serious* issues about his mother. He shows this as a vampire by kidnapping Buffy's mother, Joyce, and subjecting her to psychological torture by explaining how he's going to turn Buffy into a vampire and how he's going to get Vamp-Buffy to attack her own mother. (OK, I know the original point was that the beast shows what the human repressed, and Kralick didn't repress to start with, but it's still a case in point.)
In 'Fool For Love' (season 5), Spike explains to Buffy how becoming the monster made him feel free of the constraints of society, something he had been extremely aware of as William the Bloody Awful Poet. Again, the beast frees that which the human had repressed.
Regarding Angel. Liam (Angel's human name) had serious self-worth issues where his father was concerned. His first act as a vampire was to slaughter the man who had made him feel small. Now he is under the influence of a curse that makes him remember every single death he caused. Also if he has one moment of pure happiness he will revert to the evil Angelus. Angel's got a good heart and is a hero, so he doesn't want that to happen. It's only natural then that he should be a brooding type - brooding over his past evils, and constantly on guard for any event that could cause a moment's true happiness.
What we don't know (yet) is if there is any such clause tied to Spike's newly acquired soul, so there would be no reason for him to brood over the 'perfect happiness' thing. It is probable (but by no means certain) that Spike will feel regret or guilt for the evil done in the past. I say that this is not certain because Kralick (for example) was a psychotic bad guy *way* before he was a vampire. Sometimes *humans* are the biggest monsters you can face. Spike has had 128 years of guilt free carnage-making, he has got to enjoy being unfettered from the constraints of society. Who says he's going to start paying attention now? And anyway, society's changed a lot since he was a wet blanket of a human.
So there you go. My theory in a (rather large) nutshell.
(Also, please bear in mind Trinity isn't quite the Buffaholic I am, which is why I go into some depth about some of the episodes when a lot of us might automatically know what episode/scene/character I was talking about.)...In 'Doppelgangland' (season 3), the episode where an evil, vampire Willow from an alternate reality appeared in Sunnydale, *our* Willow said she thought her double was 'kinda gay'. Angel started to explain (but was hushed up by Buffy) that the demon inside can often bring out repressed feelings, urges & tendancies.
At the time of this episode Joss was planning for A Scooby to be gay in the future, but hadn't decided who. Seth Green (Oz)'s departure for Big Screen Glory during season 4 left Willow single and the Tara storyline was introduced. It's sheer synchronicity that this was the character who's 'Evil Twin' appeared to be 'kinda gay', but the season 3 episode did genuinely introduce the 'Buffyverse vampire fact' that the beast shows sides that the human had, but had repressed.
This is also shown in 'Helpless', the (season 3?) episode where Buffy hits her 18th birthday. The Watchers Council turns up and puts her through the Cruxiamentum, a (supposedly controlled) test where her Slayer abilities are supressed by injections administered while Buffy was in a trance. The Monster of The Week was Kralick, a vampire who was insane when human, and had *serious* issues about his mother. He shows this as a vampire by kidnapping Buffy's mother, Joyce, and subjecting her to psychological torture by explaining how he's going to turn Buffy into a vampire and how he's going to get Vamp-Buffy to attack her own mother. (OK, I know the original point was that the beast shows what the human repressed, and Kralick didn't repress to start with, but it's still a case in point.)
In 'Fool For Love' (season 5), Spike explains to Buffy how becoming the monster made him feel free of the constraints of society, something he had been extremely aware of as William the Bloody Awful Poet. Again, the beast frees that which the human had repressed.
Regarding Angel. Liam (Angel's human name) had serious self-worth issues where his father was concerned. His first act as a vampire was to slaughter the man who had made him feel small. Now he is under the influence of a curse that makes him remember every single death he caused. Also if he has one moment of pure happiness he will revert to the evil Angelus. Angel's got a good heart and is a hero, so he doesn't want that to happen. It's only natural then that he should be a brooding type - brooding over his past evils, and constantly on guard for any event that could cause a moment's true happiness.
What we don't know (yet) is if there is any such clause tied to Spike's newly acquired soul, so there would be no reason for him to brood over the 'perfect happiness' thing. It is probable (but by no means certain) that Spike will feel regret or guilt for the evil done in the past. I say that this is not certain because Kralick (for example) was a psychotic bad guy *way* before he was a vampire. Sometimes *humans* are the biggest monsters you can face. Spike has had 128 years of guilt free carnage-making, he has got to enjoy being unfettered from the constraints of society. Who says he's going to start paying attention now? And anyway, society's changed a lot since he was a wet blanket of a human.
So there you go. My theory in a (rather large) nutshell.
5 Replies and 1794 Views in Total.
Posted: 20:31 May 31 2002 
Nah, don't see it. Darla felt extreme guilt and remorse at what she had done as a vampire when she became human and she was a vampire a *lot* longer tham Spike was.
And Angel was a drunken lout/ladies' man before he was sired, hardly a heroic type. It was Whistler who made him like that. Before that he had little interest for interacting with humans and eventually fell into a pit of despair when Whistler found him.
No, for me, Spike will return as the sensitive, romantic soul he was before he bumped into Dru that fateful night.
Now, if Buffy constantly rejects him, he may become depressed and write more poetry. But I don't see him becoming the rebel he became once sired.
And Angel was a drunken lout/ladies' man before he was sired, hardly a heroic type. It was Whistler who made him like that. Before that he had little interest for interacting with humans and eventually fell into a pit of despair when Whistler found him.
No, for me, Spike will return as the sensitive, romantic soul he was before he bumped into Dru that fateful night.
Now, if Buffy constantly rejects him, he may become depressed and write more poetry. But I don't see him becoming the rebel he became once sired.
Posted: 21:58 May 31 2002 You would say that wouldnt you
by Whistler
And Angel was a drunken lout/ladies' man before he was sired, hardly a heroic type. It was Whistler who made him like that. Before that he had little interest for interacting with humans and eventually fell into a pit of despair when Whistler found him.
Posted: 23:00 May 31 2002
When Angelus got his soul, he still tried to be Angelus so he could be with Darla, and he didn't apepar to be anything like Liam.
It took 100 years, whistler and Buffy to amke him want to do good, instead of sitting around brooding. He couldn't kill humans but he didn't exactly want to help them either. It was seeing Buffy, and loving her that set him on the path to redemption
Spike was already helping humans when he had no soul. He already loved Buffy, and had started to help becuase of this as well as the chip of course. There doesn't seem to be any reason for Spike to become William.
the thing i'd like clarified is, does the soul make the vampire feels guilt for his killins/deeds as a vampire, or does it bring back the human who is repulsed by what the vampire has done in it's body?
cos if it's the 2nd one then the human soul really has no reason to feel guilty as it was the demon who commited the crime. But it doesn't explain why Angel would return to darla to try and be with her after he was souled.
It took 100 years, whistler and Buffy to amke him want to do good, instead of sitting around brooding. He couldn't kill humans but he didn't exactly want to help them either. It was seeing Buffy, and loving her that set him on the path to redemption
Spike was already helping humans when he had no soul. He already loved Buffy, and had started to help becuase of this as well as the chip of course. There doesn't seem to be any reason for Spike to become William.
the thing i'd like clarified is, does the soul make the vampire feels guilt for his killins/deeds as a vampire, or does it bring back the human who is repulsed by what the vampire has done in it's body?
cos if it's the 2nd one then the human soul really has no reason to feel guilty as it was the demon who commited the crime. But it doesn't explain why Angel would return to darla to try and be with her after he was souled.
Posted: 16:02 Jun 01 2002
Near as I can see, the personality of a vampire is the same as that of the human they once were, _except_ that the soul, and its moral compass are replaced by the evil drives of a demonic spirit.
What drew Dru to William was the twist of bitterness in his gut; the side of him that would happily have obliged the man who wanted to have a railroad spike through his head rather than listen to William's poetry, had he not felt constrained by his humanity. Released by his transformation, you can be sure he went straight to the ironmongers and bought some spikes, and that was William's pain driving him.
But, it's been 120 years since then, and Spike is a changed man. He's killed two Slayers, and fallen in love with a third. Even if he's become human, he'll still have the memories of those times, and the feelings that they bred in him. He could not possibly be the same person; the return of his soul is not a reset switch.
Ensouled - either human or a vampire - Spike will be plagued with guilt over his deeds. What he does with that is of course up to him, but he will feel it. However, he won't just be William the BAP; he'll be Spike with a soul. The fire was unlocked in him, and won't be put away, but he'll have to find a way to channel it now that he probably doesn't _want_ to indulge in wanton destruction anymore.
And therein lies the interest.
What drew Dru to William was the twist of bitterness in his gut; the side of him that would happily have obliged the man who wanted to have a railroad spike through his head rather than listen to William's poetry, had he not felt constrained by his humanity. Released by his transformation, you can be sure he went straight to the ironmongers and bought some spikes, and that was William's pain driving him.
But, it's been 120 years since then, and Spike is a changed man. He's killed two Slayers, and fallen in love with a third. Even if he's become human, he'll still have the memories of those times, and the feelings that they bred in him. He could not possibly be the same person; the return of his soul is not a reset switch.
Ensouled - either human or a vampire - Spike will be plagued with guilt over his deeds. What he does with that is of course up to him, but he will feel it. However, he won't just be William the BAP; he'll be Spike with a soul. The fire was unlocked in him, and won't be put away, but he'll have to find a way to channel it now that he probably doesn't _want_ to indulge in wanton destruction anymore.
And therein lies the interest.
Posted: 19:21 Jun 01 2002