I never thought the borg had to have any reaon to assimilate a species other than the fact that it was in the way and that they could.

I've always thought of the borg as a kind of technological locust, hopping from species to species assimilating whatever they came across, but it does make sense for them to have a home space type of thing, after all, everything originates from somewhere if you go back far enough.

But I also believe that having the borg queen significantly weakened the threat, but that's more likely to do with dumbing down for the american audience more than anything else.. (The good guy always wins and all that)

I quite like the borg queen, but that's a a completely different story

Plus, Locutus was actually unimportant. He was a point of contact with the Federation to try to get them to see reason. Once the Fed was assimilated he would have no further use, and would revert to being a simple drone, like all the others.

The idea that he was different because the Borg Queen wanted to score - because the Borg Queen, in some way, apparently thinks that individuals are _better_ than the collective - is at the heart of the reasons why she was a bad idea.

The idea of them having an original home doesn't bother me so much as it having any remaining meaning to them. It should be just so much biomass and minerals to them, like any other planet or system. Moreover, they never showed any signs untio First Contact of holding territory. They didn't occupy planets, they just took parts of their distinctiveness that made them strong, stripped the planets of their resources and moved on. The Cube was a superior home to a planet because it takes you places, where you can find new things to assimilate.

Also, as to Picard and Seven's 'inside knowledge'; that should all be obsolete, just days after they leave the collective.

(Edited by The Prophet 25/01/2003 16:03)

That's one thing that allways bothered me: if the cube is so superior and so damn huge, how come they can't find any space for a shield generator? Also the fed does have some usefull tools: interphasics, transphasics, abladive armour, etc, etc.

---

by Havoc
That's one thing that allways bothered me: if the cube is so superior and so damn huge, how come they can't find any space for a shield generator? Also the fed does have some usefull tools: interphasics, transphasics, abladive armour, etc, etc.

---

Because they don't need a shield generator.

As to the rest, the Borg don't need interphase technology because they are virtually invulnerable; don't need transphasic technology because they can shoot through anyone's shields anyway; and because every system can be tasked to any role, their entire ship is ablative armour.
The only reason they would need Federation technology is because they became wimps who could not longer adapt to anything but phaser fire.

Anyway, real Borg don't target certain goodies an more than they have enemies, they roam around looking for what's there and take it.

---

by The Prophet
Anyway, real Borg don't target certain goodies an more than they have enemies, they roam around looking for what's there and take it.

---

"Real" borg ?!?!?

Step away fromthe television set

Real borg do whatever the scriptwriters tell them to do in a style determined by the director

But yes, I agree that there're some very intriguing continuity points in this regard, there are in any show. That aside and going to the technology is something I'm very uncomfortable with as I don't have any "trek-verse" facts to go off.

I don't know how fast they adapt, but it does seem that as the length of time between Picard's and 7's "un-assimilation" increases the value of any intellignece decreases, unless those individuals are still somehow in contact with the borg? Even if they're not aware of it? (residual borg telepathy? )

---

by MonSTeR
(quotes)"Real" borg?! Step away from the television set

---

LOL, that's a nice way of putting it!

---

by Stoo
I never thought the borg had to have any rea[s]on to assimilate a species other than the fact that it was in the way and that they could.

---

Nope. It has been made clear on many occasions that the borg are only interested in Acquiring technology and species that adds to their current collective. It is possible to fly right up to a borg cube, observe it and even spend time on it, as long as you show no charcteristics that interest them. We don't stop to flick off every darn parasite on our body, only those that present either a significant danger or interest to us. For the borg individuals present the same interest.

But this does leave us with the question as to why they then launched an attack on the Federation. It presented no threat at the time and had little or no technological nor evolutionary advantages to it. And to take the odd tactic of having an advocate (Picard) makes little sense. But then that episode has other annoying aspects in it. Like my favourite. In a 3 dimensional map of space, why would you mark the Sol system as 0,0,1? Surely if you are going to be Sol centric, then surely the co-ordinates 0,0,0 makes far more sense? Although in itself, a Sol centric co-ordinate system in a rotational spiral galaxy makes little sense anyway...

And we already know that the Borg originated in the Delta quadrant, thanks to Voyager. I agree that these are basically a nomadic people, but they still need to repair, to co-ordinate and expand at a sustainable rate, just like any other empire. They still need resources like power and to be able to conduct repairs, upgrades and the like, and for this you need biomass. But then again, this questions further why the Borg would launch an attack on the Federation or the anyone in the Alpha quadrant.

And as for the Borg being 'virtually invulnerable', this is only in regards to Federation technology. I forget the exact species designation (826, I think, or somesuch), but the race existing in Fluidic Space posed more than a minor threat to the Borg, and may have wiped them out, if Janeway hadn't stuck her oar in.

Yes, this is all just the stuff of the imagination of a team of scriptwriters, loosely based on some ideas by Gene Roddenberry, who was never much of a scientist, or even good at continuity. It's Space Opera, Pulp Fiction, but a lot of us like it. And I see nothing wrong with examining these issues and more than we do with Buffy or Tolkein or any other form of fiction. In fact, it's part and parcel of the fun. It's just unfortunate that the writers go out of their way to make this very difficult by throwing the rule books out (as if there were any) in favour a cheap and easy story line.

Anyway, the Borg Queen sucks as an idea, as does the attack on the Federation. Made good telly though...

What was my point again?

---

by JayJay
And we already know that the Borg originated in the Delta quadrant, thanks to Voyager. I agree that these are basically a nomadic people, but they still need to repair, to co-ordinate and expand at a sustainable rate, just like any other empire.

---

But I don't think they do need to expand at a sustainable rate, because prior to First Contact, there are no Borg colonies; no Borg worlds. Their world is their cube; they do not have an empire and they never try to build one.

---

by JayJay
They still need resources like power and to be able to conduct repairs, upgrades and the like, and for this you need biomass.

---

But all of their resources and facilities are held within the cube. If they need energy, mineral resources or biomass, they take them from whatever is handy. Upgrades and modifications to the cube are made internally, and continually. Why fly back 'home' when everything you need is in the ship, especially since the one thing that the Borg palpably don't need which humans do is to occasionally get off the ship, feel fresh air on their faces and real, honest gravity beneath their feet, and get more than a hundred yards from their work colleagues before they go space crazy or something.

My comments on Species 1812 (I never can remember the number) are a matter of public record, the jist being they were only a threat to the Borg to prove how hard they were. They were not a well-thought-out plot device, even by Star Trek standards.

Oh, and does anyone know why the Voyager crew never gave them a name? It seems to me that the first thing a human crew would do on meeting a new thing that won't talk to them is to give it a name; even if they were fighting for their very survival, humans like to have something to call a thing.

As to why the Borg attacked the Federation, my flatmate suggested that - aside from a little resource and biomass gathering - it might have something to do with the fact that when they first encounter the Enterprise it blasts away from them at many times the cube's maximum velocity.

Due to the rather strange fact that I can often remember the daftest little details from TV and films, I know the species designation you're looking for is 8472. Sad, I know, but it also makes more sense when you consider I was round at Havoc's when he was playing Voyager: Elite Force only a week or two ago...

---

by Jayjay
(quotes)

In a 3 dimensional map of space, why would you mark the Sol system as 0,0,1? Surely if you are going to be Sol centric, then surely the co-ordinates 0,0,0 makes far more sense? Although in itself, a Sol centric co-ordinate system in a rotational spiral galaxy makes little sense anyway...

---

Sorry to get all nerdy, but do we know this is a cartesian coordinate system? As you say this is daft in a spiral galaxy, could it be a polar coord system?

ie 0 degrees rotation in X-Y plane, ) degrees elevation in Z Plane, and 1 unit disctance from galactic centre?

Dont even get me started on stardates...

OK, here we go...

---

by The Prophet
But I don't think they do need to expand at a sustainable rate, because prior to First Contact, there are no Borg colonies; no Borg worlds.

---

Do we know this? As far as I'm aware TNG never tackles the issue of where the Borg are from. They are the unknown alien force that exists only to oppose all that the Federation stand for. In much the same way as the Klingons in TOS and The Dominion in DS9. We are not meant to be interested in them beyond fearing them as the ultimate baddies. Voyager is the only time I know of where the issue of where the Borg came from is even vaguely tackled (and often badly). From this we know they occupy a region of space they consider their own. There is no suggestion that this only occurred post-TNG, that I can think of.

---

by The Prophet
But all of their resources and facilities are held within the cube. If they need energy, mineral resources or biomass, they take them from whatever is handy.

---

But here's the problem. The cube does not contain all they need. It cannot supply a self-sustaining power source. Nor materials for repairs or upgrades. These have to come from somewhere. If you do not occupy and maintain a number of m class planets for this purpose then you run into a number of problems. Firstly, if you have to attack a civilization every time you need biomass/energy then you run the risk of damage and loss of personnel during any conflict. If you do not then subjugate the populace - or wipe them out - you run the risk of them using the experience to prepare a counter-attack, or to co-operate with other victims in opposing them. If you run a scorched earth policy you eventually run out of resources and become redundant. By far what makes most sense for the Borg collective is to occupy a certain amount of space they know they can rely on for resources and can easily defend. Then have a number of cubes travelling through space in search of new technologies and species to assimilate. And to the credit of the Star Trek writers, this seems to be the case.

As for species 8472 (cheers Alan), actually I always thought they were a plot device to create a reason why Voyager and the Borg would co-operate. Thus creating the opportunity for adding Seven of Nine to the Voyager crew, which the writers clearly felt would help 'raise' flagging interest in the show.

And no, I have no idea why Voyager stuck with the Borg designation. It does indeed seem counter-intuitive, but then Voyager is the weakest of the Star Trek stories.

---

by The Prophet
As to why the Borg attacked the Federation, my flatmate suggested that - aside from a little resource and biomass gathering - it might have something to do with the fact that when they first encounter the Enterprise it blasts away from them at many times the cube's maximum velocity.

---

Actually, that's pretty darn good. But shouldn't they have realised pretty quickly that the Federation did not have the required technology to achieve this feat? And why take the extreme approach of assimilating the whole Empire and by doing it in such emotive terms - by heading for the human home world?

---

by Wobag
Sorry to get all nerdy, but do we know this is a cartesian coordinate system? As you say this is daft in a spiral galaxy, could it be a polar coord system?

---

Like most things vaguely scientific in the Star Trek Universe (Star Dates, Warp Speeds, etc.) the co-ordinate system is never explained. While we know the Sol Systems location, I can't think of Vulcan's or Qonos' ever being quoted.

0,0,1 would not fit a polar system, as if you set the distance from the galactic centre to Sol as being value one, that most sectors will have a value less than one, as we are on the galactic fringe.

From what I can tell it's an arbitrary numbering system. As humans started the Federation, Sol gets the first designation: 0,0,1. Presumably Vulcan, as one of the main founders of the Federation, is 0,0,2. Or maybe 0,1,0. I dunno. It's not even clear why a tertiary number system is needed, as no three dimensional model would explain catagorizing Sol as 0,0,1.

Clearly it's just bad writing. 'Oh my god, they're heading for sector 0,0,1 - The Sol System!' All melodrama and no content.

---

by Jayjay
OK, here we go...

(quotes)

Do we know this? As far as I'm aware TNG never tackles the issue of where the Borg are from. They are the unknown alien force that exists only to oppose all that the Federation stand for. In much the same way as the Klingons in TOS and The Dominion in DS9. We are not meant to be interested in them beyond fearing them as the ultimate baddies. Voyager is the only time I know of where the issue of where the Borg came from is even vaguely tackled (and often badly). From this we know they occupy a region of space they consider their own. There is no suggestion that this only occurred post-TNG, that I can think of.

---

In TNG, the Borg show up on their cube, and every time they pass by they take stuff and go. They never leave anyone to occupy or colonise a world, and as far as we know, they don't even land, they just scoop minerals and biomass off a planetary surface, leaving a big-ass crater for the crew of the Enterprise to scratch their heads over. While I'm not sure it's ever made specific, the implication is very much that the cube is the Collective is the Borg.

---

(quotes)

But here's the problem. The cube does not contain all they need. It cannot supply a self-sustaining power source. Nor materials for repairs or upgrades. These have to come from somewhere.

---

But clearly to some extent it does. They have to grab the occasional refill - by using the crater-making 'scoop' field - but the ship repairs itself by recycling and regenerating damaged material. It's never explored how - maybe by taking mass from inside the cube to reinforce the 'hull' - but it certainly repairs itself in mid-battle, and upgrades itself constantly.

---

If you do not occupy and maintain a number of m class planets for this purpose then you run into a number of problems. Firstly, if you have to attack a civilization every time you need biomass/energy then you run the risk of damage and loss of personnel during any conflict. If you do not then subjugate the populace - or wipe them out - you run the risk of them using the experience to prepare a counter-attack, or to co-operate with other victims in opposing them. If you run a scorched earth policy you eventually run out of resources and become redundant. By far what makes most sense for the Borg collective is to occupy a certain amount of space they know they can rely on for resources and can easily defend. Then have a number of cubes travelling through space in search of new technologies and species to assimilate. And to the credit of the Star Trek writers, this seems to be the case.

---

I'm not sure that does make more sense. Even with the transwarp conduits, the Borg seem to take months to travel between quadrants, which is not a practical timeframe for resupply. If they expanded their territory in line with their cubes' expeditionary work - which they don't - I could buy it. If they were mobile, establishing a base of operations, shifting everything from the old place and holding the new one until they were done with an area, I could buy that.

But the fact is that they seem to have this great swath of controlled space in the Delta Quadrant, and to not care about settling anywhere else, _except_ on Earth in First Contact. Otherwise, there should be a corridor of Borg space from the Delta Quadrant to Earth.

Also, they don't actually run a scorched earth policy, since they don't strip a planet; just grab what they need and move on to pastures - or rather, biologic and technological distinctivenesses - new. If I said otherwise earlier, I apologise for seeming to change my argument; this is actually something I just realised now.

Well, so it seems to me anyway. It's been a while since I saw any of the TNG Borg episodes though, and I was never an avid Voyager watcher.

---

As for species 8472 (cheers Alan), actually I always thought they were a plot device to create a reason why Voyager and the Borg would co-operate. Thus creating the opportunity for adding Seven of Nine to the Voyager crew, which the writers clearly felt would help 'raise' flagging interest in the show.

---

I quite agree that 8472 were there to introduce Seven and - as you say - raise the flag; I just think that, as a way to do it, they bit. The one thing the Borg needed from Voyager was the one thing they should never have needed from anyone else, and in fact if they needed anything from them, they should have just assimilated the ship and gotten on with it.

In short, my problem with 8472 is not that they were a plot device, but that they were a bad plot device.

---

And no, I have no idea why Voyager stuck with the Borg designation. It does indeed seem counter-intuitive, but then Voyager is the weakest of the Star Trek stories.

---

Amen.

---

(quotes)

Actually, that's pretty darn good. But shouldn't they have realised pretty quickly that the Federation did not have the required technology to achieve this feat? And why take the extreme approach of assimilating the whole Empire and by doing it in such emotive terms - by heading for the human home world?

---

Well, as anyone who's ever played MOO2 knows, when conquering an enemy empire, you hit the homeworld as soon as possible because it slams their morale, reducing not only combat effectiveness but also their production rates until they can build a new capitol.

Moreover, if Starfleet Command has access to all the secrets of the Federation, why bother with any of the outliers. The Borg are not concerned with the Federation's military might - and why would they be? The Federation after all claims not to have a military - so they go straight for the big apple in the middle.

They destroy the fleet at Wolf-359 because...well, for the Borg at that stage it's probably slightly less work than steering.

That, plus dramatically 'My God! They're heading for Earth!' provides a point of contact for the audience you just don't get with 'My God! They're heading for Proxima Centauri!'. Also, it's a short, dull episode if the fleet is waiting at Wolf-359 when they get word that the Borg have stopped at Risa, have assimilated the concept of 'shore leave' and decided not to go anywhere else.

Of course, overall what happens to the Borg is just what happens to all Star Trek baddies over time, which is that they're just never as tough the next time around. Remember how the Dominion chewed up the Galaxy class starship in the first encounter? Now remember how effective the Galaxy classes in the battlefleet were?

At least with the Jem'Hadar they had the excuse that they didn't really adapt.

William Shatner has written a couple of books set just after Generations which involve the borg. The basic plot in one is that some renegade romulans have allied with the Borg, they steal Kirk's body from the mound on Veridian 3 and using nanites they bring him back to life.

The story ends with Kirk & Picard on the Borg homeworld where Kirk sacrifices himself to destroy the collective...can't remember what the books called...the title Avenger springs to mind and it's a good red.

So according to Shatner there is a Borg homeworld..and Captain Kirk would know wouldn't he

Methinks you're thinking of the Return? Yes, I thought Avenger wasn't too bad for something associated with William Shatner!