Fred's last words made me all goose pimply with shock. I literally couldn't believe it. Plus i had the huge lump in my throat to go with it. I was totally unspoiled for this. And Illyria definitely looks interesting...

Loved the way Angel and Spike were bickering over the Astronauts vs Cavemen argument, the way Angel, irritated, got right in his face before being interrupted by Wes

The way they all pulled together for Fred, all past disputes (esp Angel and Spike) forgotten.

The biggest shock that i got was when Fred sang that line from "You Are My Sunshine", and the way Lorne spun around in shock and then Fred coughed up blood and collapsed.

Gunn seeing the Conduit as himself... very interesting analogy. Plus the look on his face when Knox informed him that he was the one that had made it easier for the sarcophagus to get through customs and into the lab and infecting poor Fred.

Spike and Angel on that bridge, looking down at all of those coffins, Angel realising that they couldn't sacrifice millions of lives to save just one and the look of utter grief on his face when he realised they'd failed Fred.

Lorne dealing with Eve... i honestly didn't expect him to hit her, but GO LORNE!!!

But the episode in my opinion belonged to Fred and Wesley. Amy and Alexis were just fantastic.

"I'm not scared, i'm not scared... I wanna stay.. .Wesley, why can't i stay?"...

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by Keenangel
Lorne dealing with Eve... i honestly didn't expect him to hit her, but GO LORNE!!!

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I found myself cheering Lorne on as well, bout time he got some of the action. His little speech after it was superb also.

And I'm not afraid to admit it, I had a tear in my eye when Fred was on her way out. The way that Wes was trying to stay strong and not to break was immense.

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by Sydney
(Astronauts would win btw)

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No... the cavemen would

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by Keenangel
Spike and Angel on that bridge, looking down at all of those coffins, Angel realising that they couldn't sacrifice millions of lives to save just one and the look of utter grief on his face when he realised they'd failed Fred.

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You're that sure she's dead?

Errm, pretty much because it's Illyria that's inhabiting Fred's body now... the medical staff were saying that her internal organs were liquefying and her skin becoming harder and impenetrable.. so i think it's a given... though in Jossverse, who knows... If she wasn't dead, i don't think the episode would've concentrated on her last hours don't you? but hey, really hoping i'm wrong here

*knox isnt dead, like they'd let him go in such a way
*cavemen would win dont forget they are talking about hand combat so unless the astronaughts are trained in martial arts and stuff i'd say the cavemen would tear them apart
*wonders if anyone would dare start a seperate thread for this "debate"*
*seeing Illyria (doesnt Amy look hot in that costume??? i know its only colouring on the skin and streaks in her hair but it still looks damn good) and the whole "they've lost her forever" kind of feel i immediately thought of The Phoenix Saga they all thought they had lost Jean Grey *shrug*
*i did shed a tear for wesley my heart broke for him i cursed Master Whedon for such cruelty lol (and not because i think wesley is hot but for the character and he finally gets her and she's taken away)

(Edited by bipolar 22/04/2004 15:59)

"A Hole In The World" is the bright point of a murky season. But in the harsh light of day it feels very dim.

It employs every trick in the book to manipulate the audience for all theyÂ’re worth, and it does it very well; it knocked me for six when I first saw it. Astronauts and cavemen rule, that's offical. As does Spike backchatting a reject from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

But strip away the gimmickry and "A Hole In The World" is suddenly threadbare. IÂ’ve long abandoned any emotional investment in Angel because I donÂ’t enjoy being toyed with by a writer whoÂ’s plainly done likewise. Fred and WesleyÂ’s relationship springs from nowhere: the plot's been boiling for three seasons, and we're not given a convincing reason why it happened now. Ciphers do not a good story make. The gang actually had something to *do* this episode, but that only serves as the exception that proves the rule for this season.

"A Hole In The World" reminds me a lot of the Evil Willow arc from season six of Buffy: very shocking, but for its own sake, not the plot's, because itÂ’s used to paste-over its absence; surprise should be drawn from the narrative, not shoehorned in to make up its shortfalls. Coming along and killing off Fred grabs the attention, but when the surprise dims so does the episode, because any author can draw emotion from their public by bumping off a well loved character, and an author as good as Joss is in the master class, but there needs to be more, and this episode just donÂ’t have it.

Angel *does* get better, but not with "A Hole In The World".

And the death scene dialogue is so saccharine you'd think it had a controlling share in Cadburys!

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by Keenangel
Errm, pretty much because it's Illyria that's inhabiting Fred's body now... the medical staff were saying that her internal organs were liquefying and her skin becoming harder and impenetrable.. so i think it's a given... though in Jossverse, who knows... If she wasn't dead, i don't think the episode would've concentrated on her last hours don't you? but hey, really hoping i'm wrong here

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Soz, just having a Kryten moment...

Spike: "It's b*******, Angel. It's your brand of b*******, from first to last."
Angel: "You can't ever see the big picture. You can't see any picture."
Spike: "I am talking about something primal. Like savagery, brutal animal instinct."
Angel: "And that wins out every time with you. You know, the human race has evolved, Spike."
Spike: "Oh, into a bunch of namby-pamby self-analyzing w****** who could never hope to--"
Angel: "We're bigger, we're smarter, plus there's a thing called teamwork, not to mention the superstitious terror of your pure aggressiveness."
Spike: "You just want it to be the way you want it to be."
Angel: "It's not about what I want."
Wesley (enters room)" "Sorry. Is there something we should all be discussing?"
Angel: "No."
Wesley: "It just sounds a little serious."
Angel: "It was mostly theoretical."
Spike: "We were just working out...look, if cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who would win?"
Wesley: "Huh. You've been yelling at each other for 40 minutes about this. (pause) Do the astronauts have weapons?"
Spike and Angel: "No."


And I would post the new thread (very 'The One'), if I had time to find out what the title is...