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Hmmm.. at least Enterprise is actually trying something a bit different, rather than Voyager's "Ohhh, another anomaly!" trick..
Posted: 22:43 Mar 24 2002
Has it all been done?
OK 600 plus eps under the belt, whatever your opinion of Enterprise and Voyager I think its fair to say that nothing really touched the glory years of the original show and TNG.
Is it really realistic to expect them to still be able to crank out new intersting episodes, havent they simply run out of permutations of conflicts, tiume travel, and big swirly things in space?
Some say that it needs new creators at the helm, but is there anything left to innovate, or is Trek destined to remain the comfortable sweater of the scifi genre?
(Edited by Wobag 25/03/2002 18:54)
Is it really realistic to expect them to still be able to crank out new intersting episodes, havent they simply run out of permutations of conflicts, tiume travel, and big swirly things in space?
Some say that it needs new creators at the helm, but is there anything left to innovate, or is Trek destined to remain the comfortable sweater of the scifi genre?
(Edited by Wobag 25/03/2002 18:54)
14 Replies and 5392 Views in Total.
Posted: 22:43 Mar 24 2002 
Well, I prefer DS9, so there goes support on one issue.
In terms of 'permutations of conflicts, tiume travel, and big swirly things in space?', I daren't point at anything in Ds9 that was significantly different in terms of stand alones. That wasn't what DS9 was about though they could do them well enough. What made DS9 significantly different was the arced events, the political machinations and eventually, the depiction of an intergalatic war, something not allowed in other treks because of their episodic nature and frequent use of the situation reset button.
The things DS9 tackled were done at greater length and in ways neither TNG nor TOS could.
I find TNG amiable enough, with a few very good episodes. It uses a different format to DS9, and I can see that preference of one over the other is a matter of taste.
Voyager, on the other hand, was let down by using the formula of TNG and doing it much worse. I think there was great potential for Voyager to do something different for the trek franchise again: to greater explore the pressures and conflict of two combined crews, alone in strange territory with mis-matched views and without external forces to control their actions. Instead, they're matey within episodes and never seriously consider that they may have to settle down in the delta (?) quadrant.
So I think I'm agreeing with you, though I see it as an irrelevant question. There are only so many plots, and those that were re-hashed can hardly have been said to belong solely to the earlier treks anyway.
Farscape uses many of the cliches of sci-fi plotting, but it's approach is very much it's own.
In terms of 'permutations of conflicts, tiume travel, and big swirly things in space?', I daren't point at anything in Ds9 that was significantly different in terms of stand alones. That wasn't what DS9 was about though they could do them well enough. What made DS9 significantly different was the arced events, the political machinations and eventually, the depiction of an intergalatic war, something not allowed in other treks because of their episodic nature and frequent use of the situation reset button.
The things DS9 tackled were done at greater length and in ways neither TNG nor TOS could.
I find TNG amiable enough, with a few very good episodes. It uses a different format to DS9, and I can see that preference of one over the other is a matter of taste.
Voyager, on the other hand, was let down by using the formula of TNG and doing it much worse. I think there was great potential for Voyager to do something different for the trek franchise again: to greater explore the pressures and conflict of two combined crews, alone in strange territory with mis-matched views and without external forces to control their actions. Instead, they're matey within episodes and never seriously consider that they may have to settle down in the delta (?) quadrant.
So I think I'm agreeing with you, though I see it as an irrelevant question. There are only so many plots, and those that were re-hashed can hardly have been said to belong solely to the earlier treks anyway.
Farscape uses many of the cliches of sci-fi plotting, but it's approach is very much it's own.
Posted: 22:46 Mar 24 2002
ahh, but wasn't DS9 a cheap copy of Babylon 5 anyway, or at least the studio's way of saying "ooh that looks cool, what can we borrow?"
Posted: 00:07 Mar 25 2002 
Isn't it funny how *most* DS9 groupies won't hear a word said against it?
Anyway, to answer Wo's question, I think it *is* time to retire the Trek adventures. They have served us well, served generations well, but how long now before we start saying 'seen it in TNG' or 'DS9' (and yes, we said it with TNG after seeing episodes that were duplicated from TOS) but now they are *seriously* running out of stories.
If they go much further back in time than Enterprise they might as well call the series 'Star Trek : Conception' and set it in 2005, Brooklyn!
(Edited by Red 25/03/2002 00:20)
Anyway, to answer Wo's question, I think it *is* time to retire the Trek adventures. They have served us well, served generations well, but how long now before we start saying 'seen it in TNG' or 'DS9' (and yes, we said it with TNG after seeing episodes that were duplicated from TOS) but now they are *seriously* running out of stories.
If they go much further back in time than Enterprise they might as well call the series 'Star Trek : Conception' and set it in 2005, Brooklyn!
(Edited by Red 25/03/2002 00:20)
Posted: 00:18 Mar 25 2002 Is it?
by Red
Isn't it funny how *most* DS9 groupies won't hear a word said against it?
Posted: 00:34 Mar 25 2002 As far as this DS9 fan's concerned, you can say what you like. Of course, if you say something nasty, I shall consider you deranged and completely ignore anything further you say...
by Red
Isn't it funny how *most* DS9 groupies won't hear a word said against it?
Personally I loved DS9, but I also really liked TNG and TOS - they're all very different animals though. DS9 was definitely a bit low standard until B5 proved that arc stories worked, then the writers cottoned on and it suddenly took off. Yeah, it ripped off a load of ideas - and did them better. Although I love Straczynski's stuff, DS9's final two seasons knocked B5 off the podium for me.
Yep, Voyager seriously failed to live up to potential, the jury is still out on Enterprise (but I like it so far).
Posted: 17:04 Apr 03 2002 LMAO! Yeah they do that
by Stoo
"Ohhh, another anomaly!" trick..
I didn't dislike DS9, but I didn't find time to watch it like I did and still do with TNG.
In a way I do think its all been done, but it doesn't stop me watching! On the other hand, space is very big... What I can't understand is how can they call them quadrants when there might be more than 4 of them?
(Edited by Desire 06/05/2002 01:27)
Posted: 01:25 May 06 2002 My post www.tangent21.com/it.php?topic_id=1332&s[s]=0&s[n]=50&s[w]=posts#reply1 might help
by Desire
What I can't understand is how can they call them quadrants when there might be more than 4 of them?
The only thing I don't get is further out from the diagram there must be more unexplored stuff further out from the center... and why has the Delta quadrant not been explored? After all, they've made a map of it and all... *shrug*, I think there may be holes in the theories
(Edited by Stoo 06/05/2002 13:55)
Posted: 13:54 May 06 2002 I'm not quite sure what you mean.
by Stoo
The only thing I don't get is further out from the diagram there must be more unexplored stuff further out from the center... and why has the Delta quadrant not been explored? After all, they've made a map of it and all... *shrug*, I think there may be holes in the theories
According to the shows, the Federation has explored about 19% of the galaxy by the 2nd season of TNG (Picard). This almost totally in the Alpha Quadrant, and a small part of the Beta (the Federation and its neighbours), plus a very small area of the Gamma, at the other end of the wormhole, and the route of the Voyager in the Delta. The last two are largely unexplored for two reasons - distance and the presence of large, hostile political entities (the Dominion and the Borg) respectively. The Delta quadrant also lies on the far side of the Romulan Star Empire, which is generally hostile.
IRL, we have a general map of the galaxy (showing clusters, dust clouds and so on) now - derived from astronomical observation. Presumably the Federation can come up with something more detailed, even from such a distance?
Posted: 10:56 May 10 2002