Question : You even enjoy buffy any more?

Yep, I do. Nekkid Spike. Weekly now. Works for me

I still like Buffy and I'm a bit surprised at how many people say they don't. Just like life, people and situations change. That has to be reflected in a show that is now in it's 6th season. When the show began, Buffy was a 16 year old Sophamore in High School. Now, she's almost 21, with a poor job trying to run a house and look after a dependent (Dawn). And yet, she still has her Slayer duties.

It#s only natural that the characters themselves will change and that they will face new and different challenges. If the show was *exactly* how it was when it first started everyone would complain that the show had no direction or was stale.

Personally, I think S6 has been excellent (with one noticeable exception) and look forward each week to the next ep. And that hasn't changed since I started watching Buffy four years ago.

I really wish i still did love it. one thing i have noticed is that it's the (sorry) older people who still really enjoy it. Maybe it's just me that, now they're no longer at school/university (or rather now they're no longer shown at school/university) i have trouble relating to the characters. I always enjoyed it because apart from the demons, it was exactly how school is. i also used to like the comedy though, and the fact that the demons each week seemed to have some difference to them.

Most of the demons recently seem to be plonked in there in a rather "The Body" manner, to just out them in because she's the slayer, but gloss over it because there's more important stuff to be concerned with. It doesn't make for a good show, well, not when it is based on BOTH life stuff AND demons etc.

Maybe its just that it focuses on Buffy so much more now, we have had one specific character episode and that was the willow/magic/drugs one, which was pretty boring and badly done. I don't think i'm worldly wise enough to describe in a proper fashion why i no longer like it as much as i did, but the only thing i can say is that i wish i still looked forward to thursdays (or fridays as it was back when i loved it) to watch it

I think every TV shows looses its charm at some point for me I thought Buffy went a bit down hill in season 4, I guess Joss wanted to try out some new adeas, some went well and some failed. Buffy will always be Buffy though, whether you are watching season 1 or season 6

I'll jump on Whistler's bandwagon (and whoever else reiterated so), Season 6 *has* been excellent. Comparing it to the five seasons before, i find s6 grabs the second spot as my favourite breakdown of ep's with ease - Season 2 being the only cluster of episodes that really has an edge over the others.

The puns, the quips, the gags, there all still witty... if not even more so. The juxtaposition of humour, horror and evident "grief-zones" establishes that although the show has changed networks between seasons it remains exactly as it has always been - the one show that expertly juggles drama, comedy and horror like no other. The hybrid theory, i like to vouch.

But Buffy The Vampire Slayer is six years old now and has established its own rules and its own way of doing things, ahem... thanks Mr.Whedon. But Staleness is hard to avoid when people expect you to follow specific traits ascertained in seasons before. Questions arise - how do you keep your show surprising and meeting the expectations of such a wide and sadly mainstream audience now?

I think the problem is mostly to do with long term fans, me being one i believe people's tolerance levels to the show are all susceptible to the attitude represented in this thread. With so many episodes... well it's hard not to find certain topics, issues and scenario's falling critically below even the sub-standard of your own taste. Like Incandenza and Kate's comments of the way Willow has developed in relation to her magic/drug addiction. Personally i thought it was a captivating few episodes, think what you like. I must say it may of been due to reasons only certain "experienced" people could relate with, but again this is only questioned speculation, lol. What i do know is the show will never be perfect, not by a long shot... if however it continues the way it's going, i'm not going to be the one that may revolt or take a certain level of abhorrence to something that has meant so much to me and no doubt all of you in my time. You just have to keep riding that wave though you know, if your a true fan... it only comes natural that you'll get times of... ugh, television conflict? As for Scrubs, Alias... Dark Angel and the vast amount of other half-baked shows (i am allowed to be critical right?), well they're not my particular idea of great television.

After all these years i've only had one scenario were i felt like the majority of folks here and that was actually between seasons and the boredom of watching re-runs, heh. I mean what more do you people want? My opinion, some of you are looking too hard, maybe questioning the show more or maybe not making yourself more vulnerable to the shows excellence. Maybe some are trying to grasp so tightly that your own, well your own contempt is ruining the show. Well whatever it is, your obviously entitled to your opinions.

"Calm before the Storm." Interesting MonSTeR.


(Edited by Birdbrain 01/04/2002 22:31)

I think it has been pretty decent so far, the second ep (i think) with that possesing demon, was amazing and the "geeks" have had their moments to. I really didnt like the way they did the whole Willow is addicted to getting high on magic thing, she only went to see Rack twice. Hardly an addiction in my view. Also Dawns being a boot, moaning that Buffy isnt at home, I dont think Buffy goes to the burger joint for fun now does she. Buffy beating up Spike at the cop station, i thought was really horrible, doesnt usually bother but that did and i couldnt really watch the last ep after that.

S6 has been good just not great.

I'm really enjoying S6 so far - with the exception of the Willow magic addiction thing.
I found that a really weird change of direction - at first they were heading in an Absolute power corrupting / fall from grace sort of direction, then in a single episode they change it to an addiction...

Well, I still think that Buffy is the best show on TV!

I don't watch a lot of tv. I don't have the time, and to be honest 95% of what's on bores me senseless. If I happen to have a spare hour I'd rather read a book, chat to friends, listen to the radio. I particularly hate American-import drama series as a general rule. I find them formulaic and over-reliant on plot at the expense of any but the sketchiest character development. And if they're set in a high school full of perfect teens with average teen problems added on to the gripping drama my heart sinks even further. I was never like those kids when I was their age, let alone now.

I know that many people here like these shows. I personally don't. You may find more merit in them, or some way to identify with the characters. I don't. But then again, I spent years without a tv and never missed it. I still turn it off if there's nothing I particularly want to watch.

*But* from the first episode of Buffy I saw ('Halloween'), I was hooked, despite it being the kind of show I normally hate. And I liked it for the ways in which it was different from other shows in the same vein. Part of that was the humour, which was often more adult and showed a sense of irony lacking in most American tv. But mostly it was the way that the show seems to me to embrace the dark underside of contemporary America, much as Twin Peaks did. Sometimes evil comes from outside, but just as often it is lurking in the places that seemed safest - the friendly teacher, the loving boyfriend. Even the good guys can't be trusted to stay good.

I like the changes that have taken place. If it had stayed a high-school series it would have become as boring and formulaic as all the rest. It dared to take its characters into the adult world. I'm sure that does make it seem darker. There are no adult figures to stand between the Scoobies and the darkness now, and more and more that darkness comes from within, not from the monsters. I think that the Three Geeks could develop into a very good Big Bad. They started off trivial, but by now they have killed someone and got away with it. What are they going to try next? And it's more complex than any other villains - after all, Jonathan at least was always a fairly sympathetic character.

I think Season 4, like Season 1, suffered badly from trying to find its way with a new premise. Since then I feel that the show has been consistently of as high a quality as it always was (allowing for the unpredictability of outstanding episodes).

I've got to say that I still find Buffy to be a brilliant show. Although I became a bit jaded during season 4(who didn't ) I have so far been entertained by almost every episode shown. OMWF was one of the best episodes of Bufy I've seen as was the episode after that(forgotten the name..sue me ) Yes Spike and Buffy's frequent couplings have been annoying and not really helped the story along but hopefully when we get to see a big bad then this series will really kick off....I wonder how many people will look back at these posts after the end of season 6 and say "How could I have thought that?"..maybe even including me if it bombs but ah well

I still love Buffy.

Heck; I even liked Doublemeat Palace.

I agree with White Hart in almost every particular - which is to be expected as she's my sister and we've already hammered through just about every point she brings up on the phone at great length - so I won't reiterate any of that.

Basically, I still think that - except when it does the drugs message, which it has always done badly - Buffy is incredibly well written, and the characters well realised.

I think Xander is still funny, he just isn't the goofball anymore. Likewise the other characters have changed, have developed. Character development is what keeps Buffy fresh, in my opinon, and it is an inevitable result of that devlopment that the show itself must also change.

And yes, there has been an escalation in the power and competence of the characters, but that has neither been in place of character development, nor in isolation from it.

However...

However, I _do_ feel that Buffy should have the courage to bite the bullet. Good though the writers are, almost no series has ever retained its momentum forever, and attempts to do so are invariably lame. I'd like to see Buffy go out with a bang, not a whimper, probably at the close of Season 7.

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by The Prophet


Heck; I even liked Doublemeat Palace.

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Me too, although its the kind of ep you suffer through. I honestly think that was the most chilling Buffy I've ever seen bar none - Hush doesn't even come close. The world of fast food...ergh, spooky.

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by The Prophet
I'd like to see Buffy go out with a bang, not a whimper, probably at the close of Season 7.

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It always gets me when people wish an arguably timely demise on my favourite show cause I don't want it to end...EVER ,but that's just me I guess. If it were up to me they'd still be doing the show until they were in an old folks home...I can think of a few great storylines already involving ungrateful absentee children and vampire orderlies...hmm - scrubs meets Buffy meets waiting for God. It could work!

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by killer
hmm - scrubs meets Buffy meets waiting for God. It could work!

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I can just see Dr Cox as the watcher and JD as his young 'newbie' slayer. I like it!

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by Kate
The "issues" that the show has always addressed by metaphor have, in the past, been subtle enough to be ignored if you chose to, but this season seems far more heavy-handed in its approach. The magic-as-drugs metaphor wasn't done well enough to be powerful or with enough sublety to be engaging.

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Agreed. I've heard several rumours about this storyline, basicallly involving a)the studio telling them to do it or b)it being a last minute change due to the fact that many fans were basically expecting Willow to be the seasons 'big bad'. None of which excuses 'Wrecked' of course...

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Besides which, it's becoming increasingly more uncomfortable to watch along with my eight-and-a-half year old daughter. Questions are beginning to be asked that I don't yet feel confortable answering.

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I'm sorry, are we talking about the same show here? The one whose videos have been rated 15 for the last few years, which features people dying gruesome deaths on a regular basis, which often contains language which I can't use on this site, and which has always dealt with issues I would consider unsuitable for children?
Buffy is not a kids show, and the adult themes are entirely in keeping with the growing up (or lack of) of the characters.

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Losing a major cast member has left a gap in the dynamic that so far, no-one has stepped in to fill. Despite the idea that Buffy and her friends are meant to be adults now, and no longer need a "father", I see no evidence of there being grown-ups in the picture at all. (ref: "Gone" - "It's magic weed"... oh please - a five-year-old would have had the brain not to say something quite so lame)

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Which is entirely the point. With, interestingly, the exception of Tara, none of the characters in the show are displaying much maturity at this point.
However, the idea was not that they're all adults and don't need him any more, it was that having Giles to lean on was preventing them from becoming adults, and he was right. His leaving is forcing Buffy to slowly confront real life - to get a crappy job because she needs the money, to face up to her shortcomings as a parental figure to Dawn, etc. Do you think any of that would have happened if he'd stayed? I don't.

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The season so far has had some high points - but far fewer and further between than ever before. I can only conclude that the show misses Joss. Now he's not there every day and seems to be spreading himself thinner and thinner, his baby is showing signs of neglect.

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I agree to an extent. I suspect that Joss is actually involved with the overall themes and storylines as much as he ever was, but Marti Noxon is no substitute for him as a writer.

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I'll keep watching, but only in the hope that things will improve, not because I can't wait to see what happens next.

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Well, 'Dead Things' is, in my opinion, the best of the season, and pretty much up there with the best of Season 5.
I've been pretty down on the season generally but having seen a few eps ahead of Sky I'm actually enjoying it a lot.

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by misskittyfantastic
I still watch it, but I think it's kind of a duty than being desperate to find out whats happening as in previous seasons.

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Took the words out of my mouth

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by Kate
Besides which, it's becoming increasingly more uncomfortable to watch along with my eight-and-a-half year old daughter. Questions are beginning to be asked that I don't yet feel confortable answering.

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by In a State of Dan
I'm sorry, are we talking about the same show here? The one whose videos have been rated 15 for the last few years, which features people dying gruesome deaths on a regular basis, which often contains language which I can't use on this site, and which has always dealt with issues I would consider unsuitable for children?
Buffy is not a kids show, and the adult themes are entirely in keeping with the growing up (or lack of) of the characters.

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I understand what you are saying, Dan, and yes, Buffy is not aimed at *young* children. But my 8 year old also watches and adores Buffy. Has from day one, as, I imagine, have a lot of younger children. She appealed. She was a Superhero for a new generation, and a great role model for girls.

My daughter understands special effects, knows that it's all make believe, but she enjoys watching the characters and the stories unfold, as do I and many others, the reason for watching Buffy (not the gore or horror aspect, cos it aint big on either, certainly not these days).

Oh okay, she's always had a thing for Xander too

What Buffy does contain a lot of these days are sexual innuendos and references, as well as the more blatant happenings, and I am also having to vet the episodes each week before deciding if Abby can watch them (and it's usually a No) because, as Kate said, it is bringing up questions that are not ready to be asked, or answered yet, and certainly not by a TV show.

The show has gone in an entirely new direction this season, with the whole gang *growing up*, and it may well be that it is time Abby stopped watching. I am close to making that decision already, which would be a shame. Teens and the slighter younger children can, and have, enjoyed Buffy just as much as adults, especially when the understanding of what they are watching is in place. Yes, it can also take out the mystique for them, but I would rather she know what is happening. (There have been some episodes she has never seen, incidentally, such as 'Hush')

Watching Willow have a problem with magic began a conversation with my daughter on the dangers of addiction. A grown-up conversation, which she is more than capable of. But some questions are not ready, at the age of 8 to be asked, or answered.

Dan, I can see what you are saying to Kate, but I can also see why Kate is having problems with Buffy these days. I am too. And IMO it is a shame that this new direction is taking away the pleasure of watching Buffy for the younger viewers. I have always enjoyed watching Buffy with my daughter. Sadly, it looks like it is coming to an end.

Fair enough. I have noticed that Buffy has always appealed to kids, even when they don't get exactly what's going on. While I maintain it's always been at the forefront (a number of scenes in 'Graduation Day', to pick just one example, spring to mind) I agree that they've pushed the 'adult' content to the extent where you really can't miss it.

Personally, though, I like the darker aspects of Buffy, which is why I like 'Dead Things' so much. Although even that's beaten by the episode I watched this evening.

have to agree with Whistler on his views. charcters change as do people. the show is growing up with the charcters. yes there have been some seriously bad eps this seasons but there have also been ome corkers., the musical being an example.
besides there is still far worse on tv, than Buffy, so i'll still watch it!
i know i'm repeating others coments but hey its my oppinion too!

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by Red
Question : You even enjoy buffy any more?

Yep, I do. Nekkid Spike. Weekly now. Works for me

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Oh yeaaah! Totally agree with that one. Plus "Once more with Feeling" was a spectacular return to form i felt.

I still prefer Buffy to Angel especially with this new 'Oh dear, am I in love with Cordy?' type stuff going on now. Its not right.

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by Wiggy
one thing i have noticed is that it's the (sorry) older people who still really enjoy it.

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Hmm, maybe that's why I still enjoy watching it!

I agree with Whistler - the show would have become stale if the characters and situations hadn't moved on.
While I agree that this season doesn't have the power or emotion of 2 and 3, I still think the writing and characterisation is far superior to that on other TV series.

I think maybe some people's dislike of the way the show has gone has been influenced by the way the Scooby gang have become so disjointed and the characters increasingly insular, as a group of friends being constantly close and supportive in the face of adversity is always a popular theme (see 'Friends'....).

But me, I still love it and look forward to every Thursday.
Oh, and a weekly viewing of James Marsters abs only adds to the pleasure of watching.....

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by Sunnydale_girl
(quotes)
But me, I still love it and look forward to every Thursday.
Oh, and a weekly viewing of James Marsters abs only adds to the pleasure of watching.....

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And don't think they don't know it. Note that since getting physical with Buffy, Spike has replaced his customary T with a button-up shirt which can hang - or be ripped - open.